A tale of two CJ's

[ronenash]

As many here know I am enjoying my LP125m SE for a few month now. I am driving them with the Lyngdorf DPA-1 preamp with room correction. I was extremely happy with this setup and it was the best my system ever sounded that is until….
Last weekend a friend offered me to try the ET3 preamp. My initial reply was I am not interested. I had the ET3 for a brief time before and I could not see what benefits another component in the signal pass can bring. Given the fact that I am using the Lyngdorf as a DAC/Room Correction device that can be configured for either fixed or variable output, I did not think adding another component to control volume will have a positive impact on the sound. Remember, we are talking about more electronics and another pair of interconnects.
Well, after my friend insisted I took the ET3 for a try. I am telling you folks, I could not believe the change the ET3 made in my system. The soundstage grew to enormous proportions, harmonic structures were laid out with such beauty and I could feel the musicians sitting in front of me so clearly it is spooky. I still cannot rationalize what I am hearing but the ET3 definitely has a very positive effect on the sound. Mind you this is the standard version and not the SE version. I do not know if this is magic synergy between the CJ power and pre amps or if there is something else coming into play here but there is no denying the result is very special.
I am now starting the hunt for an ET3SE or ET5. Maybe an ACT2. This CJ pre/power combination is just too good to pass. :music:

Can anyone explain these results? I cannot. I only know what I hear.

[turntable]

Ronenash, What you are hearing are all the strengths of a great tube pre amp.

Imo ss pre amps cannot give you the 3d musical magic that great tube amps do.

Enjoy the new tube pre amp

Cheers

[ronenash]

What puzzles me is that essentially a preamp is a wire with gain. We all learned that if the source is not good not component upstream will fix this. Yet, in this case the source directly into my power amp sounds far inferior to the source through the preamp and to the power amp.
As I said, I do not understand it but I know what I hear :scratch2:

[Rafale]

Now Ron..... imagine GAT+LP125M SE....

[chessman]

What puzzles me is that essentially a preamp is a wire with gain. We all learned that if the source is not good not component upstream will fix this. Yet, in this case the source directly into my power amp sounds far inferior to the source through the preamp and to the power amp.
As I said, I do not understand it but I know what I hear :scratch2:

The Brits call a preamp a "control amp." I think they are right - there seems to be much more going on than merely a wire with gain. :yes:

[Puma Cat]

As many here know I am enjoying my LP125m SE for a few month now. I am driving them with the Lyngdorf DPA-1 preamp with room correction. I was extremely happy with this setup and it was the best my system ever sounded that is until….
Last weekend a friend offered me to try the ET3 preamp. My initial reply was I am not interested. I had the ET3 for a brief time before and I could not see what benefits another component in the signal pass can bring. Given the fact that I am using the Lyngdorf as a DAC/Room Correction device that can be configured for either fixed or variable output, I did not think adding another component to control volume will have a positive impact on the sound. Remember, we are talking about more electronics and another pair of interconnects.
Well, after my friend insisted I took the ET3 for a try. I am telling you folks, I could not believe the change the ET3 made in my system. The soundstage grew to enormous proportions, harmonic structures were laid out with such beauty and I could feel the musicians sitting in front of me so clearly it is spooky. I still cannot rationalize what I am hearing but the ET3 definitely has a very positive effect on the sound. Mind you this is the standard version and not the SE version. I do not know if this is magic synergy between the CJ power and pre amps or if there is something else coming into play here but there is no denying the result is very special.
I am now starting the hunt for an ET3SE or ET5. Maybe an ACT2. This CJ pre/power combination is just too good to pass. :music:

Can anyone explain these results? I cannot. I only know what I hear.

It's interesting that you've observed this, because I've read several articles in the audio mags by staff writers that have observed exactly the same thing, usually when using DACs with a volume control connected directly to a power amp. And, when inserting a preamp, have observed exactly the same nature of improvements you have. And while, technically-speaking, removing components should "improve" the sound, or while we assume that a preamp should be a straight wire with gain, the facts are that neither are true.

And if I were to put forward a hypothesis is as to why, I think the reason is that when you insert a pre-amp, especially one from a manufacturer that consistently been famous for it's preamps for over 30 years, the reason is that these do what they were designed to do better than DACs, equaliizers, etc, etc., and that is PRE-amplification. Taking a very low level signal, and amplifying it up to the levels required for a power amp. S/N goes up, power supply regulation improves, and then there's the "intangibles".

The other thing you've discovered is the synergy of using C-J preamps and amp together. What you get is MAGIC, and this is why so many C-J power amp owners also use C-J preamps.

[CDLehner]

The Brits call a preamp a "control amp." I think they are right - there seems to be much more going on than merely a wire with gain. :yes:

+1 :yes: As an all-digital audiophile, where...AFAIC...the DAC is my source...I was an early adapter of DAC right into a power-amp.

Some did better than others...but when I went back to even modest "hi-end" active models (like the McCormack RLD-1 or Belles 21a), they clearly bested even the best of the DACs with volume control (in my system, the Eastern Electric Minimax was the most successful).

Now, I'm a BIG believer that less-is-more is sometimes only true in theory; and...I look forward to getting the right C-J pre, to create some of that synergy magic PC is talking about. :D

[ronenash]

I can only imagine what the ET3SE or ET5 will sound like... Will keep you posted

[ronenash]

This preamp is turning to be my biggest audio surprise ever! Its make everything routed through it sound better. Yesterday I tried it with my 30 year old Beard P100 power amp and the combination was just outstanding. This is the best the Beard has ever played. I can't do direct comparisons but based on memory this preamp is noticably better than previous CJ design I tried including the PV10, PV12 and CT6 all of which I have used for several years. The ACT2 S1 did have more dynamics as I remember it but its not a fair comparison. At $2500 for the basic version it is an unblievable bargain.

[Puma Cat]

That was the conclusion of the reviewer of the ET3 in Stereohile as well. I heard the ET3 at my local dealer and was impressed. I asked if it was as good as the Premier 17 and they said, "No way". I then called Ed at C-J and asked the same question, and got the answer, "No way. The ET3 at it's price point can't match quality of circuit board components (parts), construction, design, etc. utilized in the Premier 17". The Pr17, for example, uses solid silver hookup wire throughout.

My guess is an ET3 SE would sound more transparent than a Pr17LS, but a Pr17LS2 would be better than an ET3 SE.

[Briz Vegaas]

I had the same experience as the OP.

Digital volume control into the CA200 seemed to better the analogue control in the amp. It was more detailed etc. I checked this a couple of times while I was running this configuration just to be sure.

I borrowed a CT5 and it's been here ever since, if you ignore the speaker demoes that I tried before discovering that the pre was the best option.

What sold me was pretty much everything about the sound, it was addictive. One caveat however, turns out my source had been juiced up by the power cord I also had to borrow for the new configuration. The power cord alone made a small difference but it was the CT5 that knocked the ball out of the park, so to speak.

[Rayooo]

As many here know I am enjoying my LP125m SE for a few month now. I am driving them with the Lyngdorf DPA-1 preamp with room correction. I was extremely happy with this setup and it was the best my system ever sounded that is until….
Last weekend a friend offered me to try the ET3 preamp. My initial reply was I am not interested. I had the ET3 for a brief time before and I could not see what benefits another component in the signal pass can bring. Given the fact that I am using the Lyngdorf as a DAC/Room Correction device that can be configured for either fixed or variable output, I did not think adding another component to control volume will have a positive impact on the sound. Remember, we are talking about more electronics and another pair of interconnects.
Well, after my friend insisted I took the ET3 for a try. I am telling you folks, I could not believe the change the ET3 made in my system. The soundstage grew to enormous proportions, harmonic structures were laid out with such beauty and I could feel the musicians sitting in front of me so clearly it is spooky. I still cannot rationalize what I am hearing but the ET3 definitely has a very positive effect on the sound. Mind you this is the standard version and not the SE version. I do not know if this is magic synergy between the CJ power and pre amps or if there is something else coming into play here but there is no denying the result is very special.
I am now starting the hunt for an ET3SE or ET5. Maybe an ACT2. This CJ pre/power combination is just too good to pass. :music:

Can anyone explain these results? I cannot. I only know what I hear.

I went kicking and screaming into the same realization a couple years ago.
Between moving to a CJ preamp, a few cable tweaks, I've literally entered an entirely new realm that I spent many years never accepting was possible.

In my case I run a DAC-2 in fixed output through the ET5. Logic would suggest running the DAC in variable output directly to amps. So much for logic. It's the difference between a very good sounding system, and one that is astounding.

[ronenash]

I went kicking and screaming into the same realization a couple years ago.
Between moving to a CJ preamp, a few cable tweaks, I've literally entered an entirely new realm that I spent many years never accepting was possible.

In my case I run a DAC-2 in fixed output through the ET5. Logic would suggest running the DAC in variable output directly to amps. So much for logic. It's the difference between a very good sounding system, and one that is astounding.

I will try to get an ET5, ACT2 or if I don't find the right opportunity I will get the ET3SE.

[ronenash]

The funny thing is that I have worked with a CJ preamp all my life starting with the PV10 almost 20 years ago. When I got the Lyngdorf DPA-1 it was so much more transparent and detailed than the vintage CJ preamps that I switched.
Its amazing to hear the progress CJ has made with its current line of preamps.

[Puma Cat]

The funny thing is that I have worked with a CJ preamp all my life starting with the PV10 almost 20 years ago. When I got the Lyngdorf DPA-1 it was so much more transparent and detailed than the vintage CJ preamps that I switched.
Its amazing to hear the progress CJ has made with its current line of preamps.

I think this is what astonished Jonathan Valin when he wrote about the GAT/ART combination in TAS late in 2011. It's clear he had not listened to a C-J component since the original ART back in '98....

[Jerome W]

Ron,

See my thread in the general audio discussion titled "More is not Better" and you will probably recognize some of your experience.
I have been using a RP1 for 2 years and thought it was wonderful. When I removed it from my system, I started to enjoy music again at a much higher point. The RP1 is out now. It has more negative effects than positive.

Moreover, CJ knows how to build a quality preamp. I'm not sure about Lyngdorf. Synergy is also of prime importance so that is no surprise to me if a CJ preamp works better in your system than the Lyngdorf.

The preamp is the key element of the electronics. More than anything else, except the Source, it gives the signature, the voicing of the system. You were more listening to the Lyngdorf sound, even with your CJ amps, than to the CJ sound. Welcome to the CJ sound club :D !

[bgiliberti]

I thought the reason preamps sound better is that DACs lower volume by removing bits.

[Joe Appierto]

I thought the reason preamps sound better is that DACs lower volume by removing bits.

That was my impression as well whenever the volume was controlled in the digital domain.

[CDLehner]

I thought the reason preamps sound better is that DACs lower volume by removing bits.

Some do; most now, do it after the upsample anyway...so the bits "removed" are out of the sonic signature. Other DACs...like the Eastern Electric Minimax that I referred to...have a true analog pre, and don't control volume in the digital realm at all.

Still, as good as the EE was, the analog pre stage was still passive, not active; and it just sounded thin and anemic, compared to a good active stage. Some may prefer that "lean" sound; I like a little more meat on the musical bones. :yes:

[Rayooo]

I thought the reason preamps sound better is that DACs lower volume by removing bits.

I'm no expert, but from what little I know, originally, that was the case where in essence one lost resolution by throwing away bits, and ya only had 16 to start with. Nowadays, modern DACs use up sampling to 32 bits and beyond I'd presume..whereas even at lowest volume levels the resolution remains as good or better than the input resolution.

With all things audiophile, I'm sure there are N+10000 opinions on this issue. (where N is the total population of the planet)

ADDED: I guess up sampling is not the correct term for mathematically increasing the bit-depth..as up sampling would just be increasing the sample rate. so if 16 bits are increased mathematically to 32 or more, then one can do digital volume control at high resolution. I think. :dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:

[ronenash]

Hi folks,

Its was fun reading through this thread after 7 month have passed. I have since got the ET3SE, removed the Lyngdorf from the setup, returned the Lyngdorf as a DAC only with RoomPerfect and finally got the ACT2 to replace the ET3SE which seems like audio nervana at the moment.

Life's pleasures never end :D

[Jerome W]

Hi folks,

Its was fun reading through this thread after 7 month have passed. I have since got the ET3SE, removed the Lyngdorf from the setup, returned the Lyngdorf as a DAC only with RoomPerfect and finally got the ACT2 to replace the ET3SE which seems like audio nervana at the moment.

Life's pleasures never end :D

Ron,
Are you still using Room Perfect ?

[ronenash]

Ron,
Are you still using Room Perfect ?

Yes, for digital sources only.

[Puma Cat]

Interesting journey starting with the Lyngdorf to the ACT2.

I had an in-depth discussion with the seller of my Pr350 over dinner last night after we visited the CA Audio Show. He estimated the amp had maybe 20 hours on it from the first seller to him, and he may have only put another 20-30 hours on it in the time he had it before boxing it up and storing it for roughly seven years before selling it to me. It's effectively a new amp (sure looks like, too) and I have about 130 hours on it now. It's sounding better and better, but I'm fully cognizant that there's very likely a lot of improvement to come yet.

Listening to the incomparable Verve LP recording of Getz/Gilberto reissue by Speakers Corner, and it is sounding quite lovely at the moment, I must say. The midrange on this amp is downright gorgeous.

[ronenash]

Interesting journey starting with the Lyngdorf to the ACT2.

I had an in-depth discussion with the seller of my Pr350 over dinner last night after we visited the CA Audio Show. He estimated the amp had maybe 20 hours on it from the first seller to him, and he may have only put another 20-30 hours on it in the time he had it before boxing it up and storing it for roughly seven years before selling it to me. It's effectively a new amp (sure looks like, too) and I have about 130 hours on it now. It's sounding better and better, but I'm fully cognizant that there's very likely a lot of improvement to come yet.

Listening to the incomparable Verve LP recording of Getz/Gilberto reissue by Speakers Corner, and it is sounding quite lovely at the moment, I must say. The midrange on this amp is downright gorgeous.

If its got roughly 200 hours on it you still have a long way to go. Being a ss amp, why not run it continuously for two weeks and get it over with? That's what I did with the CA200 at the time.

[Puma Cat]

If its got roughly 200 hours on it you still have a long way to go. Being a ss amp, why not run it continuously for two weeks and get it over with? That's what I did with the CA200 at the time.

That's what I'm kind of doing....running it 24/7 is impractical as I can hear the music at night when sleeping; my place is small and my bedroom door is open so the cat can come and go. I've been burning it in roughly 10 hours a day while at work. I could set the speakers up in a closet and run it 24/7, I guess. It doesn't even have 200 hours on it yet.

[ronenash]

Long ride to sonic nirvana :D

[turntable]

Yes, for digital sources only.

Interesting re the roomperfect. I demoed the RP-1 for a couple of weeks 3 - 4 months ago.

Sounded quite good, however whenever I played electronic music on vinyl with large dynamic bass the RP-1 would overload and distort. Fine on everything else, but anything really dynamc - always electronic music on vinyl - into overload.

The dealer/Lyndorf never came up with an edquate explanation so I let it go.

cheers

[ronenash]

Interesting re the roomperfect. I demoed the RP-1 for a couple of weeks 3 - 4 months ago.

Sounded quite good, however whenever I played electronic music on vinyl with large dynamic bass the RP-1 would overload and distort. Fine on everything else, but anything really dynamc - always electronic music on vinyl - into overload.

The dealer/Lyndorf never came up with an edquate explanation so I let it go.

cheers

The RP1 is a more limited device than the DPA1 I am using. With the RP1 essentially everything gets conveyed to digital A to D and then back to analog via the built in DAC.
With the dpa1 I have a choice of digital and analog inputs and digital and analog outputs. Its a very flexible unit where you can set separate gain for every input. I guess your analog setup was overloading the rp1.
I am not using the Lyngdorf for my main analog source (VPI Classic 1) to avoid the A/D/A conversion. My second analog rig is connected to the Lyngdorf and can sound very good.
For digital sources, I route them directly to the Lyngdorf and get analog output with RoomPerfect to my preamp.

I think the DPA1 is a great unit for its flexibility with connections and setup options. The RP1 is very limited in this regard.