Do you Think...

[Masterlu]

Do you think Turntables will continue to gain popularity over the next few years, or do you feel the interest has peaked?

[chessman]

Among the general public? Or among audiophiles?

[rnrmf1971]

I think it'll continue for awhile. Almost without exception, everyone i know that buys or collects vinyl that is under 30 years old doesn't have a new turntable. It's vintage or thrift store, or from someone in their family. They don't really even know that new turntables exist or what they cost. I don't think the market for reasonably priced tables has been cashed in yet.

[turntable]

Interest in turntables may get stronger when the major's dump CD's sometime in 2012.

there are still considerable people that think owning something physical means something - LP's are perfect for that.

[chessman]

I see a continuing interest among audiophiles. However, until there is a plug and play solution akin to the old days, it will not be generally accepted. Kids have the attention spans of gnats anymore - very few will set up a table, clean albums, or spend big bucks. Heck, they think CDs are prehistoric and cumbersome. When I was in college everyone had a turntable and used them. But they were nowhere as finicky as today's tables or, if they were to the knowing, most of us were unknowing. I remember people routinely dragging the needle over a finger tip to remove a wad of lint. Can you imagine doing that to a gazillion dollar cart?

[Jerome W]

It will grow up.

[skunark]

I think CDs and LPs will be around for a while, but will die out with the current users who enjoy the tactile experience they offer and even a bit of nostalgia plays into this. It's not cheap to buy a reasonable turntable and with today's prices on LPs, the younger crowd will look elsewhere. I still purchase CDs but are soon stored once ripped and they rarely will be handled again, and as for a turntable, I probably only use it 5% of the time with the my BDP-1 consuming the rest. I'm at a point where I can't always tell the difference between a LP and a hi-res file, it takes time (excluding LPs with telltale signs).

SACD, DVD-Audio and Blu-ray probably have a very short life since they are directly competing with a more convenant non-DRM hi-res solutions like Flac. I think HDTracks will kill off SACD and DVD-Audio pretty soon, there's not much in the way of blu-ray audio, so it's been dead before it's really been started. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs had that one picked.

Lossy formats like MP3s and their crappy digital downloads will be competing with just as crappy streaming services like Pandora and online radio stations. I would guess iTunes and Amazon downloads probably have a very short life unless streaming costs increase, they will have to migrate to hi-res files or streaming service to service or both.

I'm a little curious when Radio will die out now they are competing with streaming services and portable devices. I find myself listing more and more to talk radio now, which I used to really hate, there's only one good local radio station for rock and it drives me nuts sometimes. HD Radio seems to be dead as well.

I'm curious what my though will be in a year and after ten years.

[MC352]

For vinyl to continue to be viable and to attract new listeners, the prices of new vinyl have to come down.
Also, most people today want portable music. They don't want to sit and listen, then want to plug on their earbuds and go do something else.

[metaphacts]

For vinyl to continue to be viable and to attract new listeners, the prices of new vinyl have to come down.
Also, most people today want portable music. They don't want to sit and listen, then want to plug on their earbuds and go do something else.

While all good points on the surface, they are a bit misleading.

Vinyl is attracting new and under 30 listeners at a pace that continues to accelerate, at least if sales growth of entry level quality tables such as the Pro-ject Debut are any indicator. It is undeniably hip now, but that started when Kurt Cobain embraced vinyl and shows no signs of falling out of vogue.

It would be great for record priced to come down, but people buying tables today, especially the under 30 crowd, are typically not collectors. They buy it to play it and couldn't care less how many versions of Kind of Blue are available. The prices they do find most appalling are for use certain used records that have been driven out of sight by collectors.

Portable music and sitting and listening are not mutually exclusive. Not only do young listeners do both, they do it a lot.

[metaphacts]

I think it'll continue for awhile. Almost without exception, everyone i know that buys or collects vinyl that is under 30 years old doesn't have a new turntable. It's vintage or thrift store, or from someone in their family. They don't really even know that new turntables exist or what they cost. I don't think the market for reasonably priced tables has been cashed in yet.

Interesting observations and right on the money in a number of respects. However, the under 30 buyer typically knows new tables exist and he/she is almost never a collector (as opposed to a consumer). The under 30 crowd as turntable buyers is by far the fastest growing segment by units sold. That growth has accelerated right through down economic times. And as you say, the segment is far from cashed on yet.

[MC352]

It is undeniably hip now, but that started when Kurt Cobain embraced vinyl and shows no signs of falling out of vogue.

Portable music and sitting and listening are not mutually exclusive. Not only do young listeners do both, they do it a lot.

I don't think its undeniably hip, yet. If it was then every college dorm would have a TT. Instead, they all have IPOD's, IPAD's, IPHONE's, and MAC's.

I hope it does become hip again. I think people should relax more, and not be on the go so much.

[BuffaloBill]

For vinyl to continue to be viable and to attract new listeners, the prices of new vinyl have to come down.
Also, most people today want portable music. They don't want to sit and listen, then want to plug on their earbuds and go do something else.

Chuck, this has been my observation with my own large family and their many friends, both old and young. As you know, there are 26 of us which includes 14 grandkids with the oldest just turning 14. None of my 26 or their many friends (mostly young families with kids) have any interest in acquiring new CD players and CD's, AM/FM tuners, etc., much less turntables and LP's. They all are focused on lap top computers, iPads, iPods, etc., and generally small ear bud type head phones. The lap top computer and iPad, for example, allow them to carry their communications, music, movies, pictures, etc., with them either around the house or on trips outside the house.

[metaphacts]

I don't think its undeniably hip, yet. If it was then every college dorm would have a TT. Instead, they all have IPOD's, IPAD's, IPHONE's, and MAC's.

I hope it does become hip again. I think people should relax more, and not be on the go so much.

Relaxing for the sake of relaxing seems to be a lost art for many. Multi-tasking - even when relaxing - seems to be the order of the day. :icon_thumbsdown:

Actually it is the fact that records aren't in every dorm room that is part of what makes them hip. The stir caused when a turntable arrives is great even among those who don't even know what it is when they first see it. Guys who have tts are no longer seen as geeks - they are the cool ones. I say this as someone who has worked with the largest manufacturer of quality turntables in the world for the last decade and have seen firsthand the growth and the changes. Hard data not just anecdotal evidence.

Records are very hip. They are not mainstream. Apple is mainstream and becoming more so. Sustaining hip when everyone has one is nigh on impossible. Let's see if Apple can pull it off over the next few years.

Watch the legendary 1984 commercial and you will find that Apple's role today is far from how they were portrayed then. The only thing necessary to update the ad is a Steve Jobs image on the screen replacing the one that is there.

'1984' Apple Macintosh Commercial (Full advert, Hi-Quality) - YouTube

[Myles B. Astor]

I don't think tts are going away soon.

If there's indication that vinyl is still growing, it's has to be sales of RCMs. Surely one would have figured that by now every audiophile/record store would have bought a RCM for themselves! Yet, in talking to the folks at VPI, they are always back ordered on RCMs. That's not to mention the number of new RCMs on the market.

[Kenkirk]

For vinyl to continue to be viable and to attract new listeners, the prices of new vinyl have to come down.
Also, most people today want portable music. They don't want to sit and listen, then want to plug on their earbuds and go do something else.

I agree with you. This is exactly what I experience with my kids and their friends. Both of my kids have grown up around high end audio and vinyl. They both have bought me lp's as gifts. But my offers to buy them decent speakers, amps, etc. fall on deaf ears. My son does appreciate the nice Sennheiser headphones I bought him, but that is the extent of his interest in high end gear. And he is a senior percussionist in the band. So he does know good sound, both live and with my system. My daughter is in college and my offers to fix her up something to listen to music on besides her Iphone and computer is futile. She just looks at me like I am crazy. "Oh dad that would take up way too much space and I just want my earbuds". It is the same pretty much all over campus. Both of my kids download a lot of music from Itunes. I know, I pay the bill.

Now about the audiophile driving the turntable business. I agree, unless the price of quality vinyl comes down, more audiophiles are going to gradually move over to downloading 24/96 and 24/192 tracks. Not that they sound better than the best vinyl, but with the great dacs becoming available today, these tracks sound very close to vinyl without the tics and pops, and are cheaper too. In my humble opinion, if I produced quality vinyl reissues, I would be looking at lowering the prices immediately. If not, they are going to lose audiophile market share to down loaders. I have already made the move.

Ken

[RoadDawgWest]

When it comes to popularity with turntables among the younger generation, maybe the turntable industry should consider taking a play from the headphone industry by using "celebrities" to promote and market the sonic value of turntables.

[EightZeroZeroDelta]

I don't think its undeniably hip, yet. If it was then every college dorm would have a TT. Instead, they all have IPOD's, IPAD's, IPHONE's, and MAC's.

I hope it does become hip again. I think people should relax more, and not be on the go so much.

Relaxing for the sake of relaxing seems to be a lost art for many. Multi-tasking - even when relaxing - seems to be the order of the day. :icon_thumbsdown:

Actually it is the fact that records aren't in every dorm room that is part of what makes them hip. The stir caused when a turntable arrives is great even among those who don't even know what it is when they first see it. Guys who have tts are no longer seen as geeks - they are the cool ones. I say this as someone who has worked with the largest manufacturer of quality turntables in the world for the last decade and have seen firsthand the growth and the changes. Hard data not just anecdotal evidence.

Records are very hip. They are not mainstream. Apple is mainstream and becoming more so. Sustaining hip when everyone has one is nigh on impossible. Let's see if Apple can pull it off over the next few years.

That said, I don't think TT and vinyl will continue to grow. I hope I eat my words, but I have the feeling kids won't continue to get hooked on the idea of vinyl. Too retro, I guess.

That said, I think TT and vinyl will have a hard time getting more popular. I hope I eat my words, but I just think kids these days won't continue to get hooked on the idea of vinyl. :(

Watch the legendary 1984 commercial and you will find that Apple's role today is far from how they were portrayed then. The only thing necessary to update the ad is a Steve Jobs image on the screen replacing the one that is there.

'1984' Apple Macintosh Commercial (Full advert, Hi-Quality) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhsWzJo2sN4)

I would agree with this. Don't get me wrong, I understand it as the economy took a hit - people had to dig deeper for job security and I know that we as a society are always trying to do more and become more efficient. I just think there is something to be said for doing something simply for its face value. More is not always better.

[metaphacts]

That said, I think TT and vinyl will have a hard time getting more popular. I hope I eat my words, but I just think kids these days won't continue to get hooked on the idea of vinyl. :Frown:

Sean,

Perhaps this is one reason why some people don't see the possibility for continued growth. Normal people don't get hooked on vinyl. Records are nothing more than a different and satisfying way to access music. There is a different aesthetic than any other media and for many that has an attraction. How good it sounds is a minuscule part of the rate of growth. People buy turntables in addition to, not instead of other playback technologies and devices.

I can only go by the numbers. Growth continues to accelerate and the rate at all prices is increasing not decreasing. The world-wide rate of growth for low end tables from Pro-ject (mostly younger buyers) dwarfs the rate of growth for the more expensive tables (typically older, more traditional buyers).

It's no iPad and never will be but neither is anything else.

Bill

[EightZeroZeroDelta]

Sean,

Perhaps this is one reason why some people don't see the possibility for continued growth. Normal people don't get hooked on vinyl. Records are nothing more than a different and satisfying way to access music. There is a different aesthetic than any other media and for many that has an attraction. How good it sounds is a minuscule part of the rate of growth. People buy turntables in addition to, not instead of other playback technologies and devices.

I can only go by the numbers. Growth continues to accelerate and the rate at all prices is increasing not decreasing. The world-wide rate of growth for low end tables from Pro-ject (mostly younger buyers) dwarfs the rate of growth for the more expensive tables (typically older, more traditional buyers).

It's no iPad and never will be but neither is anything else.

Bill

Bill,

Thank you for pointing that out to me. I guess I should have poked around before I spat out my guess. I am happy to hear that too. That is also a great point that it doesn't have to be vinyl OR something else (digital). There is no one saying it cannot be both. I know that I am open to the idea of a TT when I get more space and know that I am staying put for longer that that of a lease term. All of that despite the fact that I have many digital outlets to music, ranging from cd to file audio.

[Still-One]

The turntable will continue to be a niche market. CD's will soon become a niche market. New music distributed mainly as digital files will continue to grow with higher resolution versions remaining as niche markets.

As people die off who cared about the music of the 30's - 40's and early 50's, that music will slowly die too. Next for those of us who grew up with the music of the late 50's-60's & 70's and first purchased that music on vinyl, very few people will care about those record collections when it is time to empty out the house, it will hit to the trash too.

If this is such a growth market you would think you would see significant investment in infrastructure to supply the demand for vinyl releases, that spending is going towards digital farm capacity.

Jim

[metaphacts]

I would agree with this. Don't get me wrong, I understand it as the economy took a hit - people had to dig deeper for job security and I know that we as a society are always trying to do more and become more efficient. I just think there is something to be said for doing something simply for its face value. More is not always better.

The turntable will continue to be a niche market. CD's will soon become a niche market. New music distributed mainly as digital files will continue to grow with higher resolution versions remaining as niche markets.

As people die off who cared about the music of the 30's - 40's and early 50's, that music will slowly die too. Next for those of us who grew up with the music of the late 50's-60's & 70's and first purchased that music on vinyl, very few people will care about those record collections when it is time to empty out the house, it will hit to the trash too.

If this is such a growth market you would think you would see significant investment in infrastructure to supply the demand for vinyl releases, that spending is going towards digital farm capacity.

Jim

Jim

Turntables have been a niche since the cassette passed vinyl decades ago. The growth that is there is significant in percentages but relative to the real mass market, it's beyond minuscule and always will be.

Bill

[rnrmf1971]

The cost of vinyl is not going to go down by any margin. I think there's more reason for it to go up. There's a limited number of places to make it, and demand is growing.

I have a small record label that I started a few years ago. I can tell you that the cost of making vinyl for a 300-500 press of vinyl, is anywhere from $7-$11 per unit. Add in possible costs for recording, mixing, mastering, artwork, and it goes up from there. I sell vinyl literally at cost (or at a loss) in the end, only because i'm a huge fan of bands I work with. One has to sell A LOT of lp's to make it a paying endeavor.

[1KW]

Do you think Turntables will continue to gain popularity over the next few years, or do you feel the interest has peaked?

I think interest peaked in the 70's and we are seeing a recent mild increase in interest and I am not quite sure why :scratch2: . I think the future is in cloud based music libraries such as rhapsody. If you could pay $20 a month and listen to anything you wanted anywhere and have analog quality ie HD music then people will likely stop collecting new cd's and vinyl. We are almost there, maybe a couple of more years at the most.

[JGM411]

it's just fun sitting on the couch, looking at and reading the album cover as you listen to the music.

you can't do that with downloads

joe..

come to think of it... as I get older (and on my second generation of progressive line pair of glasses) I can't read the CD covers anymore.... :(

[Still-One]

it's just fun sitting on the couch, looking at and reading the album cover as you listen to the music.

you can't do that with downloads

joe..

come to think of it... as I get older (and on my second generation of progressive line pair of glasses) I can't read the CD covers anymore.... :(
Sure you can. Many of the hi- rez downloads come with an attached PDF file with additonal information.

Jim

[BuffaloBill]

At 2.8 million records, vinyl sales in 2010 ...

Less than iTunes sales in a day. In years past over 10m have been sold on Christmas day.

[Rilands]

I Got a friend of mine into it 3-4 years ago. I gave him a nice Technics tt I picked up at a garage sale. He was thrilled. A friend of my 20 year old & my brother want the two tt's I have in my closet. I'm going to give each of them one. Not real expensive turntables, but they will get them started.
I'm not sure what the trend for Vinyl & turntables will be in the future, but I'm trying to do my part and let people I know have fun with it. I would guess over time less and less people will take the time to have the fun and enjoyment You can get from turntable/Vinyl. Of course there will always be some audio nuts that will keep spinning records, but I do believe less.

[Puma Cat]

I think it will continue to increase in popularity and in TT sales. My local high-end store says they're selling TTs like hotcakes, and I see more folks perusing the LP bins at Amoeba and Rasputins in The City (not 'Frisco) and Berkeley.

[metaphacts]

I think it will continue to increase in popularity and in TT sales. My local high-end store says they're selling TTs like hotcakes, and I see more folks perusing the LP bins at Amoeba and Rasputins in The City (not 'Frisco) and Berkeley.

San Fran then? (Sorry it had to be done :D )

[ronenash]

If one reads the audio press its easy to get the impression that turntables and LP's outsell CD players and CD's. In reallity TT manufacturer still produce hundreds of unit per year at best vs. the CD manufacturers that count their production runs in 100,000's. I think TT & LP will still continue to gain popularity in audiophile circles driven by the excellent re-issues of recent years and the very good TT offerings at reasonable prices as well as the nostagic factor of the medium.
As long as the re-issues of great music continue there is no reason why we shall not see the medium continue to gain popularity. Still one needs to aknowledge that this is a niche product.

[Robert_Anderson]

I think turntables will be around a very long time.:banana:

[AndyPandy]

Ivan ..I suggest DSD files will become available and the analog experience via digital will be available to all with convenience and comfort. If for no other reason than the sw will be easier to attain.

Having said that I predict analog will always be with us: the allure of tt's doesn't go away.

[Maks]

This is an interesting topic, I think we have to look at who is buying vinyl vs other means of listening to music. In my group of friends there is basically the music freaks (not necessarily audiophiles, just people who enjoy the music) and the casual listener. My friends who regularly go see bands, seek out new music and love most genres are into vinyl. The majority of my other friends will buy the occasional CD, or more commonly, buy a handful of mp3s off iTunes of the music they want. The interesting thing is that in the last 10 years my friends have gone from "dude, you still have records? Where do you even buy those?!" to "Wow, awesome record collection!" and then they browse through my collection. They realize that new releases from major label artists are available on LP.

Personally, I think the vinyl sales will continue to increase for awhile. I have some friends who swore by mp3s and their beloved iTunes, but have come back to physical media because there is that deeper connection of having the media, liner notes, artwork and such. However, I do think it takes a certain type of person to want to invest in a TT and go back to purchasing records. IMO it will always remain a niche format, but I believe there is still some room for growth, especially in terms of units sold vs. CD. But not vs. digital formats.

Interesting side note, the majority of the indie music shops here in Chicago dedicate most of their floor space to vinyl. CDs seem to be an after thought. There is even a shop that only sells records and he does great business. My favorite part is that on the door he has a sign that says "No CDs. Never had 'em, never will."