Which SS amp, for this C-J noob?

[CDLehner]

Hello AAs C-J community; you’re the reason I’m here! I have a C-J decision to make, I’m a C-J nooB, and I was told this is the best C-J forum on the Web!

Since I don’t have my sig with gear filled-out yet, let me tell you a little about me and my gear. Admittedly, this is a little snippet from my personal introductions page:

I am a one-source, digital streaming-only audiophile; but please don’t hold that against me. Audiophile is a dirty word to some…and music does come first with me; but I truly lust over gear too…so, guilty as charged.

I look forward to finding my way around AA. I’m a nooB here, but long-time, high-count poster at another forum…and it’s just not the kind of scene I dig much anymore. I won’t call them out by name, but…you get shouted-down if you admit to spending more than $10 on speaker cables, there’s a plethora of posts from college-kids, wanting to know the best CVs to use at their frat-house parties…and hardly any talk of music at all.

That’s not to say I’m a gear snob; can’t afford to be, even if I wanted to…lol. I’m a big bang-for-the-buck guy, and look to wring the best out of my modest, just-over-the-line 5-figure rig. I try to stay open-minded about all POVs, fall somewhere in the middle of the whole subjectivist vs. objectivist debate (with a slight lean to the left of the subjectivist side…just like my politics), and just love to talk shop.

I know some guys who like to “set it and forget it”, but that ain’t me. I guess some might call me a “futzer”; an audiophile who can’t leave well enough alone. Maybe some day, I will have heard it all...or at least enough to have decided what’s best for me; enough to let things be. For now, I haven’t heard enough, and have too much curiosity about this, that, and the other too…not to want to try different gear pretty regularly.

As such...I came here, because I’m looking for opinions on trying my first C-J SS amp…and another member recommended the C-J forum as a good one. Reviews and the trades are fine to peruse, but I don’t trust them nearly as much as the opinions and findings of other enthusiasts.

And that brings me back to C-J. My system currently consists of Belles 21a pre-amp, Belles 150a half-Hot-Rod (lol…unofficially some of the HR upgrades, but not all), and Dynaudio Special 25 monitors. I love the Belles sound, and this is probably the most musical amp I’ve owned to date (admittedly, without trying too many truly hi-end models)…but good as it is…for what it is…at some 15 years old, I have decided it’s the weak link in my system and time to upgrade.

Like I said earlier, I’m a bang-for-the-buck guy…so that means buying used. Since I like the Belles sound, a newer model in that line…like a 150a ref v1 or v2…makes sense, and if the right one comes along I might bite. However, I’d also like to try something a little different. In the name of full disclosure, I have an NAD M3 on its way…and I’m looking forward to auditioning that Integrated; but I also want to find a power-amp to mate up with my 21a, and see how things play out.

I know C-J is well-known and regarded for their tube gear…and that seems to be the natural slant around here; but it’s actually C-J SS that’s caught my eye. I just think tube/tube might be too "sweet" for me, as I'm just easing into the world of glass...lol. I started off looking at a 2300a; plenty of power, good price used. Then I came across a 2500a; same power rating (?), so what's the difference?

I did a little research, and I’ve read that some C-J enthusiasts actually prefer the 2300a to the 2500; because of the MOSFET output, the 2300a sounds more tube-like…more C-J…than its successor? Then I read that the ‘a’-revision improved the 2500a immensely, so maybe the 2300a wasn’t the favorite after all? However, I'm not sure I want the more "tube-like" of the two; as I said, if I wanted a tube amp I'd get one. Then I even thought that maybe I could get away with a 2250a. I know it has less power than the other 2 models, but my current room is pretty small (I know that more power isn't only about loudness…of course it’s not; plus, I hope not to have this small-ish room forever).

So…I have a ton of questions, to help me make this decision C-J guys. Like...what are the big differences between the 2300a and 2500a? It seems the ‘a’-revision models are much preferred, so what exactly goes into them? I do like to fidget with after-market power cords; which of these 3 models (2250a, 2300a, 2500a), if any, have female IEC (without modification of course)?

I saw one ad, where the seller said the 2500a came with a Black faceplate…and that he “upgraded” to the C-J Gold, but he would include the original Black faceplate with the unit (I know C-J guys covet that Gold, but I do tend to prefer Black); another C-J guy told me that’s BS…C-Js don’t have Black faceplates? Lastly…for now…given my system, room size, etc…what do you think is my sweet spot; which of these amps should I be taking a hard look at? I don’t know AA rules, but is talk about pricing allowed? If so, what kind of price is fair to pay for each of these models?

Before you ask…while I have my share of audiophile fodder, like anybody else; man cannot live by Diana Krall, Norah Jones, Alison Krauss, and Patricia Barber alone! I listen to EVERYTHING, and have my favs when it comes to Rock, Garage, Indie, Metal, Punk, New Wave, Funk, Folk, etc. Sometimes, I need to ROCK; and see the avatar…sometimes, I like it LOUD!

So what say you, C-J guys; help a nooB get on-board with the brand?

CD

[bgiliberti]

I have owned CJ's first mosfet amp, the MF80, for 20 years. Make no mistake, it doesn't sound like tubes -- nothing SS does IMO -- but it has some tube like qualities in terms of smoothness. I can't handle the "loose" bass of tube amps in my price range, so I got this and have been very happy. I do use a CJ tube preamp, to make sure to have some glass in the system. It's a great, highly musical arrangement. Good luck!

[ronenash]

My highest recomendation goes to the CA200. Its an integrated but can be used as a power amp as well. It is by far better then the 2300 and 2500 amps. If you want that tube-like sound find a use Motif Either the MS-100 or even better the ms 2001. They are much better built the the CJ MF series, have Mosfet in all stages including output and have that CJ sound of old days.
Still despite the overbuilt quality of the ms 2001 the CA200 is a better amp (more detailed, more harmonically rich, better soundstage and better focus).

[CDLehner]

My highest recomendation goes to the CA200. Its an integrated but can be used as a power amp as well. It is by far better then the 2300 and 2500 amps. If you want that tube-like sound find a use Motif Either the MS-100 or even better the ms 2001. They are much better built the the CJ MF series, have Mosfet in all stages including output and have that CJ sound of old days.
Still despite the overbuilt quality of the ms 2001 the CA200 is a better amp (more detailed, more harmonically rich, better soundstage and better focus).

Thanks ronenash; perhaps now is a good time to cover budget...lol. The amps I mentioned for contention, I've all seen in the ~$900-1500 range. Unfortunately, that's about where I'm looking. The CA200 looks to go more like $3500-4k.

Is the MF series junk? Should I just stick with a Belles 150a ref V1 or v2, in that under-$1500 range?

[Coppy]

My highest recomendation goes to the CA200. Its an integrated but can be used as a power amp as well. It is by far better then the 2300 and 2500 amps. If you want that tube-like sound find a use Motif Either the MS-100 or even better the ms 2001. They are much better built the the CJ MF series, have Mosfet in all stages including output and have that CJ sound of old days.
Still despite the overbuilt quality of the ms 2001 the CA200 is a better amp (more detailed, more harmonically rich, better soundstage and better focus).

Hey CDL....

I completely agree with Ron above. Over the years I've owned every SS amp CJD has made save the Motif series. If you can find one in your price range the Premier 350 SS amp is the one to own. it's an 85lb. anchor but you can own it and forget you ever need a new amp regardless of your future speaker purchases. By the way, the black faceplate is the upgrade. For WAF, I paid extra for one on my first good CJD preamp, the Premier 14. Good luck in your search. :yes:

[CDLehner]

Hey CDL....

I completely agree with Ron above. Over the years I've owned every SS amp CJD has made save the Motif series. If you can find one in your price range the Premier 350 SS amp is the one to own. it's an 85lb. anchor but you can own it and forget you ever need a new amp regardless of your future speaker purchases. By the way, the black faceplate is the upgrade. For WAF, I paid extra for one on my first good CJD preamp, the Premier 14. Good luck in your search. :yes:

Thanks Coppy. I can't seem to read anything but GLOWING reviews of that amp...and what's not to like; 350 watts per side (and double that into my 4ohm Dyns?)...big, beautiful C-J goodness. But is it realistic to think I'll find a $9500 amp, from 2004...in my modest price-range?

I'll certainly keep an eye out, but that seems like it would be a real coup.

[ronenash]

a) the MF series is not junk. The latest models MF2300, MF2500 are great amps. The CA200 is better but there is always a better amp at higher prices.
b) I would still try to hunt down a used Motif and send it to CJ for some upgrades.
c) The P350 although one of the best amp ever made is way out of your price range. They are under high demand in the used market and still command high prices.

[bgiliberti]

Thanks Coppy. I can't seem to read anything but GLOWING reviews of that amp...and what's not to like; 350 watts per side (and double that into my 4ohm Dyns?)...big, beautiful C-J goodness. But is it realistic to think I'll find a $9500 amp, from 2004...in my modest price-range?I'll certainly keep an eye out, but that seems like it would be a real coup.There is also an MF200, which is basically the same as my mf80 but with 200 watts. I would think it will be under $1000, and I think you will like it. My understanding is that the later MF2100-2300 were pretty similar to the mf80 and mf200, undoubtedly with some improvements and definitely more power, if you need that. They all sounded the same as the MF80 to me to be honest. They are all very lush sounding and on the warm side -- quite mellow, like an old Martin guitar. I never heard the 2300A, which has better parts in the circuits.

[jimtranr]

Is the MF series junk?

Not to these ears. I have the stock 2500, not the A, partnered with a Premier 17LS line stage. The 2500 was a very good match for the Maggie 1.6's I had in the dedicated room I had to evacuate, and an excellent one with the more sensitive Paradigm SE-3's in the "new" space. Some reviewers have found it a tad light on the bottom end (one performance aspect addressed with the "A" upgrade), but I didn't find that to be the case in driving the current-hungry 1.6's down to their effective lower limit of ~35Hz in the dedicated room, and it's certainly no slouch in that regard in the new setup.

The one minus I'd note is the captive power cord.

[CDLehner]

a) the MF series is not junk. The latest models MF2300, MF2500 are great amps. The CA200 is better but there is always a better amp at higher prices.
b) I would still try to hunt down a used Motif and send it to CJ for some upgrades.
c) The P350 although one of the best amp ever made is way out of your price range. They are under high demand in the used market and still command high prices.

Thanks again; I'd love to go up the C-J ladder, but the timing couldn't be more awful to think about extending myself.

I appreciate all the advice guys; trust me, that Premier 350 sounds like an amp to end all amps, and it'll be on my wish-list...down the road. But for now, better focus on these MFs, which seem to be available more in my budget.

So the 2300 and 2500 are newer than the 2250? I thought the 2300 was the oldest of the bunch, and the 2250 and 2500 were from the same series? If the 2300 and 2500 are from the same era, what's the big difference; I know the power seems to be rated the same?

[bgiliberti]

Thanks again; I'd love to go up the C-J ladder, but the timing couldn't be more awful to think about extending myself.

I appreciate all the advice guys; trust me, that Premier 350 sounds like an amp to end all amps, and it'll be on my wish-list...down the road. But for now, better focus on these MFs, which seem to be available more in my budget.

So the 2300 and 2500 are newer than the 2250? I thought the 2300 was the oldest of the bunch, and the 2250 and 2500 were from the same series? If the 2300 and 2500 are from the same era, what's the big difference; I know the power seems to be rated the same?Checkout the CJ website. They have all the vintage products listed in great detail. Kind of fun to browse through, too. One difference that might matter is when they switched to bi-polar output transistors. I think the 2500 is that, and the 2250 may also be. It should be explained on the website. I prefer pure mosfet for the smoothness, but others will have different view -- its still CJ, so it will be great!!!

[CDLehner]

OK...let me switch the direction a little bit, and ask this: I saw a 2300a, good price...but the faceplate wasn't in such great shape and that put me off it a bit.

I know, I know...the faceplate doesn't have anything to do with the sound...lol; but we all want pride in ownership, right? How hard are faceplates to come by..and what do they tend to run?

[CDLehner]

Checkout the CJ website. They have all the vintage products listed in great detail. Kind of fun to browse through, too. One difference that might matter is when they switched to bi-polar output transistors. I think the 2500 is that, and the 2250 may also be. It should be explained on the website. I prefer pure mosfet for the smoothness, but others will have different view -- its still CJ, so it will be great!!!

Is that anything like LMGTFY; or RTFM? ;)

J/K; I certainly don't mind doing my own homework. OK, straight from the mother-site: 2300 released in '93, a-revision done in '95. 2250 and 2500 released in '98; a-revision presumably done around '00.

So the 2300(a) is the oldest of my 3 contenders, but it has the same power rating as the 2500(a); it's just a matter of do I prefer MOSFETs or the bi-polar transistors. Well...someone want to tell me which I prefer...lol :D

And if I'm not mistaken, the 2250a has an IEC socket? Is it possible they only did this with the 2250a, and not also the 2500a from the same series?

[Puma Cat]

Hi CD,
Glad to see you made it over here.

Told ya this was the best C-J forum around!

Cheers,
PC

[Puma Cat]

CD,
I know the CA-200 is out of your budget for an amp; but Ron's suggestion really is the best one for your needs. If you were able to sell your other preamps, including the Belles, the McCormack, and the 150A, the questions is would that allow you to buy a CA200?

An example: if you've spent $2700 for a NAD M3 to try out, you could have put that money plus selling the other components towards a CA-200 and be under budget.

-PC

[bgiliberti]

...it's just a matter of do I prefer MOSFETs or the bi-polar transistors. Well...someone want to tell me which I prefer...lol :D....I prefer MOSFETS, but I don't get a vote on CJ election day. That privilege is reserved to Messrs C & J, who say the current design is better. If they were stupid, they wouldn't still be in business all these years, so I would go with them :D I may just like the slightly creamier sound of all MOSFET designs. Others mileage may vary....

[Rayooo]

I prefer MOSFETS, but I don't get a vote on CJ election day. That privilege is reserved to Messrs C & J, who say the current design is better. If they were stupid, they wouldn't still be in business all these years, so I would go with them :D I may just like the slightly creamier sound of all MOSFET designs. Others mileage may vary....

It seems there have been a few "generations" w/regards to mosfet/bipolar. back around the time I owned a NYAL Moscode, it seemed Mosfet outputs were the thing, bipolar were just plain terrible. It seems somewhere along the line things have changed, now seems bipolar is more prevalent for SS output devices, FETS at input.

One argument for Mosfets back when was the thermal issues with bipolar, but here we are now back to bipolar. I was a collector of the old Marantz 22XX receiver series, originally reported to sound like crap due to the bipolar outputs, now 30 years later, everyone wants a 2270 with the original old Motorola bipolar outputs. what a fun hobby. :confused-12:

[CDLehner]

Guys, good advice...one and all. I've learned plenty; like...I need a raise, and where to set my sights once I get one. :D

PC, I hear what you're suggesting about the CA200; if I were to just stop f***ing around with all my other crap, and sell-off the McCormack RLD-1, Belles 21a, Belles 150a half-a-Hot-Rod...and this newly acquired M3 (which I didn't pay anywhere near $2700 for...just for the record); I could likely swing a CA200.

I've read the excellent press...including the Tone Audio review, where the guy calls it just short of a Premier 18LS, and baby Premier 350 rolled into one. High praise indeed, and food for thought. The problem is...I like all that other crap too...lol; and as I'm just wading into C-J, it's hard to essentially say "let me give up the system I've built to this point...in its entirety...and just replace it with this single box from C-J".

Sure, if the end result is it would sound better, then I guess that's the end-goal; but it's a tough call to make for now. I'd have to bite off the ~$3500 first...and then figure it out. Like I said...food for thought. In the meantime, sounds like a 2250a might make a really nice...inexpensive...mate to my Belles pre, and that would allow me to wade-in to the C-J world.

What...didn't you tell these guys what a hand-wringer I am? :o

[Puma Cat]

Guys, good advice...one and all. I've learned plenty; like...I need a raise, and where to set my sights once I get one. :D

PC, I hear what you're suggesting about the CA200; if I were to just stop f***ing around with all my other crap, and sell-off the McCormack RLD-1, Belles 21a, Belles 150a half-a-Hot-Rod...and this newly acquired M3 (which I didn't pay anywhere near $2700 for...just for the record); I could likely swing a CA200.


Yes. BTW, would you be using the M3 as an integrated? How would this be different than a CA200 in this respect?

PC

[bgiliberti]

It seems there have been a few "generations" w/regards to mosfet/bipolar. back around the time I owned a NYAL Moscode, it seemed Mosfet outputs were the thing, bipolar were just plain terrible. It seems somewhere along the line things have changed, now seems bipolar is more prevalent for SS output devices, FETS at input.

One argument for Mosfets back when was the thermal issues with bipolar, but here we are now back to bipolar. I was a collector of the old Marantz 22XX receiver series, originally reported to sound like crap due to the bipolar outputs, now 30 years later, everyone wants a 2270 with the original old Motorola bipolar outputs. what a fun hobby. :confused-12:I owned one of the original Sony VFETS, then a Hafler DH 100 MOSFET, and then the MF80 MOSFET. The argument for all of those devices as best I can recall was "soft clipping" (MOSFET; vacuum tubes) vs. hard clipping (Bi-polar.) Perhaps that issue has been resolved on bi-polar (like build them with 100 times more power than you need so they never get close to clipping.). Actually, I think thermal problems were what eventually sunk VFETS (which were quite sweet). As far as MOSFETs, all I can say is that my trusty old MF80 barely gets warm to the touch, and has only 80 watts.

[Puma Cat]

Yeah, I think the key point for CD is to know that any choice he makes will work and sound great. The differences in C-J gear are one of degree, not "sounds good, sounds bad".

C-J's pretty much incapable of making an unmusical or poor-sounding piece of gear.

[CDLehner]

Yes. BTW, would you be using the M3 as an integrated? How would this be different than a CA200 in tis respect?

PC

Well PC, the difference...and common denominator in just about all tough decisions (at least the tough ones I have to make)...is money. Yes...I plan to use the M3 as Integrated; and that would mean...if I kept it...all the other stuff would be going. Well, maybe...

See, that's the thing; a CA200 looks to run me about $35-hunee. I wouldn't sell ALL my gear before hand, so I'd have to buy that "on the tit". OK, so if I love the CA200...I just put all my other gear up for sale, but again; that comes fraught with "risks".

Risk that my other gear doesn't bring in what I think it should, and I'm somehow left holding a bag. "Risk"...that no matter how good the CA200 may be...that I'll "regret" trading out this for that. I mean, do I need to tell anyone in this group, the hobby certainly has an emotional component. I'm not talking so much "loving" the gear I have now (although I am fond of, and reluctant to get rid of the newly acquired 21a); just that it's a big upheaval. I came in here looking for opinions on which $1k-1500 power amp I should get, that I could mate with my Belles pre...and look at 2 options for powering my system; the M3 or 21a/C-J combo...and the thought of trading everything out for a $3500 "Integrated" is not what I had in mind.

See...you asked what the difference was; between this and the M3? That's it in a nutshell; with the M3, I don't have to mortage everything else to keep it. With the M3, I still have options. With the CA200, it's "all or nothing".

Listen, I meant what I said; it's tempting...and food for thought. But while I'm sure it's easy for you C-J guys to say "get a CA200...it slays all of that", it's not something I can enter into lightly.

[CDLehner]

Yeah, I think the key point for CD is to know that any choice he makes will work and sound great. The differences in C-J gear are one of degree, not "sounds good, sounds bad".

C-J's pretty much incapable of making an unmusical or poor-sounding piece of gear.

Well that's another point too PC...and a good one. How would a 21a...which I already own...mated with a 2250a, for let's just say $1k on the used market...stack up against the CA200? Sure, all accounts are the CA200 is likely to sound "better"...but then the law of diminishing returns comes into play, doesn't it?

The 2250a costs me $1k, and sounds great paired with my 21a...versus the CA200 costing me 3-4 times as much (yes, yes...I know; I can then sell the 21a...but man, I just got the thing! lol). Besides...with a 2250a, I might be tempted to try that PV14LS2 you've been after me about. :D

[jimtranr]

I am fond of, and reluctant to get rid of the newly acquired 21a...

In that event, and given the monetary realities you describe, an MF-2500A may be just the ticket for you. Its power rating is conservative (my plain vanilla 2500 is rated at 240 wpc--it benches at around 280), its current delivery capability (a more significant indicator, IMO, of performance under real-world loads) demonstrably good in my experience with hungry Maggies, and the sonic payoff you get with the reserve that comes with that driving your speakers even at moderate levels would, I strongly suspect, be clearly audible compared to the M3 or the 2250.

FWIW.

[dpod4]

+1 on doing what u need to do to buy the ca200. Especially for special 25s. One of my favorite speakers (heard them driven by musical fidelity amp)

[bgiliberti]

+1 on doing what u need to do to buy the ca200. Especially for special 25s. One of my favorite speakers (heard them driven by musical fidelity amp)I'm not a Maggie expert at all -- but aren't they ideal with tube power amps? Way back when, I never went to a Maggie showroom that didn't use CJ tube amps to drive them...

[dpod4]

I'm not a Maggie expert at all -- but aren't they ideal with tube power amps? Way back when, I never went to a Maggie showroom that didn't use CJ tube amps to drive them...

I am using a VAC 300.1a tube amp to drive my Magnepan 3.7s. All Maggie's like power/current tho so most use SS amps, or hybrids. CJ 275 monos would work. My goal is have a CJ PR350 for summer months.

[CDLehner]

Yeah guys; rather than drive myself nuts...wringing my hands over going this direction or that, I think I'm going to rule the CA200 out at this time. Glad you brought it up, and I've seen what 2 examples are going for currently on AG. I'll keep an eye open, and if a really good deal pops up on one, the timing might be better. After all; they're not going anywhere, and the price can only come down, right? Thanks for bringing it to my attention; hey, now I have something to aspire to, moving up the C-J chain. :D

So now I need an MF amp...lol. I don't usually like to do this, if for no other reason than you never know who's lurking and listening; but I have someone offering me a price on a 2500 and 2500a. I think the 2500a is out of range at this point...unless someone were to tell me it's a steal.

As I'm new here, I'm not sure about the whole price discussion thing. Like I said, even within the rules, it's not a place I usually like to go; but I don't really know what's a good deal or not. I'm tempted to just sit tight...watch prices, gain knowledge, shop around; but you know...the disease calls.

Should I post these asking prices? I'd PM, but haven't donated yet...so I guess I don't have that privilege.

[Puma Cat]

You won't ever see a better price on a CA 200 than $3550, and it's unlikely the price will ever come down below that for quite some time. C-J gear hold it's value exceptionally well.

[Puma Cat]

Yeah guys; rather than drive myself nuts...wringing my hands over going this direction or that...

Ha! CD, thats pretty funny because you know and I both know that that's your M.O.! It's all the choices that makes it fun for you...:D

[CDLehner]

You won't ever see a better price on a CA 200 than $3550, and it's unlikely the price will ever come down below that for quite some time. C-J gear hold it's value exceptionally well.

I have an opportunity to buy a 2500 for $1300, and a 2500a for $1700. Thoughts?

[CDLehner]

Ha! CD, thats pretty funny because you know and I both know that that's your M.O.!:D

It's really not PC; I just have a hard time doing what's "good"...I need to feel like I did what's "best".

Maybe that does require just a bit of gut-wrenching. :o

[dpod4]

You won't ever see a better price on a CA 200 than $3550, and it's unlikely the price will ever come down below that for quite some time. C-J gear hold it's value exceptionally well.

I agree with pumacat. That is a deal to be embraced. CJ is not producing the CA200 going forward so now is the time to get a mint used one. If my Maggies weren't power hungry I would get the ca200. I'm holding out for pr350.

[Puma Cat]

Maybe that does require just a bit of gut-wrenching. :o

Just a bit... ;)

[Puma Cat]

i have an opportunity to buy a 2500 for $1300, and a 2500a for $1700. Thoughts?

mf2500.

[dpod4]

I have an opportunity to buy a 2500 for $1300, and a 2500a for $1700. Thoughts?

I owned a 2250a and it was ok but not special.

[ronenash]

Just to quickly comment on the MOSFET vs. bi-polar topic, in the late 80's and early 90's CJ used all mosfet designs. Such were the Motif series and the MF80/MF200. The benefits of mosfets was their tube like transfer function which resulted in tube like sound. Unfortunately mosfets have a higher output impedance which results in more complex speaker matching.
Starting with the MF2x00 series CJ moved to a mosfet gain stage with a bi-polar output stage which they felt gives you the best of both worlds. Mosfet sound with bi-polar low output impedance. In general CJ believe it is the gain stage that influences the sound the most (for their tube amps they also recommend to replace the gain input tubes more frequently than the output tubes). This hybrid mosfet gain and bi-polar output is the basis for the Premier 350 and CA200 as well.
Based on my own personal experience with the CA200 and Motif ms 2001 I can say that their approach today works extremely well. The CA200 surpasses the Motif in every respect appart from driving speakers with extremely low impedances (2 ohms and below).

[Puma Cat]

Ron is our C-J historian-in-residence! :thumbsup:

[bgiliberti]

MF2500 for 1300. U can't lose.

[dpod4]

I always regret buying less than I need. I always appreciate buying more than I need and it costs less in long run.

[bgiliberti]

J...Unfortunately mosfets have a higher output impedance which results in more complex speaker matching....What is the practical effect of that on the sound?

[CDLehner]

C-J mania for the past few days. I have some options on the table; time to sleep on it, and see what's still there in the morning.

Wish me sweet C-J dreams.

[ronenash]

What is the practical effect of that on the sound?

Higher output impedance means lower damping factor. The effect of this varies with speaker impedance curve but almost always results in less controled low frequencies. With electrostatics which have a very low impendance at the high frequencies this results in rolled off highs. With most electrostats this is actually a good thing since they tend to sound too bright in most rooms. The Motif and the Martin Logan CLS is a match made in heaven which I enjoyed for a few years.

[ronenash]

Ron is our C-J historian-in-residence! :thumbsup:

Thanks PC :D I have been a CJ fan for many years and still repair some CJ gear here and there.

[joeinid]

Hi CD,
Glad to see you made it over here.

Told ya this was the best C-J forum around!

Cheers,
PC

There are other CJ forums out there. I don't believe it and haven't seen any. :thumbsup:

[CDLehner]

Still working on my C-J quest. Had some close calls recently, and may still be working on a sweet deal; but I haven't been able to pull the trigger on anything just yet.

Remembering that I'm looking...primarily...for a 2250(a), or 2500(a); what are some channels available, to find used C-J...other than the obvious haunts? (AG, CAM, (fleec)eBay, AC, etc.)

[Puma Cat]

Spearit Sound.

[dpod4]

Spearit Sound.

+1. Good guys @ Spearit Sound.

[CDLehner]

Thanks guys. I see they have a healthy offering of C-J at the Spearit website; but no golden oldies like I'm looking for...lol.

Does the old stuff require a call?

[Puma Cat]

CD, the key is patience. And perusing AG every day, just like scoring the right pair of Dyns. And one can only drive so hard a bargain on C-J stuff because it is in more demand than a lot of other brands; there are usually multiple offers on any notably good piece of gear, as you already have found out. C-J has considerable brand equity, just like Shunyata.

FWIW, MF2250s and MF2500s are actually pretty frequent on Audiogon, again patience and perusing every day is the key; it's like looking for that Koetsu Urushi Vermilion at just the right price, you have to be ready to pounce the day it appears.

C-J PV14s, Premier 14s and PV15s preamps are less frequent but do appear reasonably frequently.

Very likely the best "used" C-J preamp at AG median listing prices is the Premier 17, which generally sells for between $1800 and $2000. While this is $400-$500 more than the median prices of PV14s, Pr14s and PV15s, C-J buyers who know their sh*t know that at that $1800-$2000 price the Pr17 is hands-down the best preamp for "performance per dollar" going, and they tend to sell extremely quickly as a result.

Right now, there is a Premier 17 on AG for $2995, but the seller is on crack if he thinks it's going to sell at that price. OTOH, if he listed it at $1995, it would likely sell in a heartbeat.

[CDLehner]

CD, the key is patience. And perusing AG every day, just like scoring the right pair of Dyns. And one can only drive so hard a bargain on C-J stuff because it is in more demand than a lot of other brands; there are usually multiple offers on any notably good piece of gear, as you already have found out. C-J has considerable brand equity, just like Shunyata.

FWIW, MF2250s and MF2500s are actually pretty frequent on Audiogon, again patience and perusing every day is the key; it's like looking for that Koetsu Urushi Vermilion at just the right price, you have to be ready to pounce the day it appears.

C-J PV14s, Premier 14s and PV15s preamps are less frequent but do appear reasonably frequently.

Very likely the best "used" C-J preamp at AG median listing prices is the Premier 17, which generally sells for between $1800 and $2000. While this is $400-$500 more than the median prices of PV14s, Pr14s and PV15s, C-J buyers who know their sh*t know that at that $1800-$2000 price the Pr17 is hands-down the best preamp for "performance per dollar" going, and they tend to sell extremely quickly as a result.

Right now, there is a Premier 17 on AG for $2995, but the seller is on crack if he thinks it's going to sell at that price. OTOH, if he listed it at $1995, it would likely sell in a heartbeat.

Ah...you know me too well PC; you use a word like patience, obviously because you sense I have none...lol. Well...you are correct sir; I run as hot and cold as Mercury. When I decide I want it, I want it...lol; if it doesn't work out, I get off it.

But C-J is different. As you know, I've been a Belles man for a few years now. Love it...and you'll never hear me say anything bad about David's gear...but I am curious to try another quality badge for a spell. And what can I say, I got the C-J bug.

Could be worse; I could have gotten the Krell bug...lol (j/k Krell owners...although, what are you doing in here). I'm just saying, I have no doubt...based on its reputation and downright fanatical following and loyalty...that it will be fabulous-sounding kit.

So...patience, huh? Doesn't seem I have any choice; I've scoured all the usual places, and at the moment there doesn't appear to be any 2250(a)s or 2500(a)s to be had. But, like I said...I've narrowly missed out on about 3 opportunities, in as many weeks...so I guess you're point is spot-on; they come around pretty regularly.

Just for the record, I didn't miss out on any of them...in my mind at least...for being overly-cheap; uh, driving a hard bargain...lol. There was "miscommunication" on one (I got screwed with my pants on by the seller), a suspect unit from another (guy would not comply with "proof" it was an 'a'...as advertised...versus not), and a unit I kicked the tires on, but ultimately wasn't happy with the condition of (too many dings on the faceplate...I know it doesn't effect the sound, but hey...a little pride in ownership never hurt anyone).

I hear ya about C-J demand though...and admit that I usually drive a hard bargain. The way I look at it, buying from AG is like a home audition. But if a piece of gear isn't to my liking, it's gonna go right back up on the auction blocks. So I don't want to be the guy that overpays, and loses money flipping; at worse, you'd like to break even, right? But as you said, I can see that C-J guys are out there prowling...lol. They know what they want, and what's a good price, and what's a great price. See, I'm just learning that, and it probably has hurt me a bit in my previous attempts. But I think I have a pretty good sense now, having missed out a few times on the models I'm looking for (although I fear the one, insane deal that fell through...that I shared with you...will ruin me forever).

I've even thought of a WTB ad on AG, which I've never done before. Anyone ever had any luck with those? I assume they're for really rare pieces, that don't come around often...and maybe it's a waste for these models that do?

So...the quest continues. Fingers crossed :D

[CDLehner]

So...the quest continues. Fingers crossed :D

Quest complete! :D At least I think so.

I'll report back, when I have the unit firmly in my hands!

[joeinid]

Quest complete! :D At least I think so.

I'll report back, when I have the unit firmly in my hands!

:banana::banana::banana::banana:

Good Luck!

:thumbsup:

[ronenash]

Hope it works out and send info and pics once the deal is secured :)

[CDLehner]

OK...here's a hint, by way of a question. The C-J website says this about the 'a'-revision to the 2300:

After two years, the MF2300 was improved by the use of Vishay resistors at critical points in the circuit, extending the open-loop frequency response of the circuit, and upgrading capacitors in the input amplifier power supplies. The improved model was designated MF2300A.

Do you think the same could be said of the 2500a? :D

Can anyone detail the upgrade for me?

[joeinid]

Did you buy the new in box CJ amp from agon?

[CDLehner]

Did you buy the new in box CJ amp from agon?

NO! I don't buy from zero-feedback guys! (and I paid less :D)

[joeinid]

Good job! Do tell ......

:)

[CDLehner]

Good job! Do tell ......

:)

Oh wait; the new in the box ad was a 2500, not 'a'-model. But oh yes...I was all over that, and had a gentleman's agreement for a cash-in-hand, local-pick-up with the seller...and got screwed with my pants on (you don't want to know all the details :rolleyes:).

But you know what they say: when one C-J door closes, another C-J door opens...lol; a guy that I had been talking to, about his 2300a...way back when I first started scouring for C-J...got back in touch, and offered me first dibs on his, supposedly MINT, 2500a (which is what I wanted all along).

I think his story was he had a 2300a, 2500, and 2500a...and he was going to sell them all, one at a time...saving the 2500a for last (presumably, because it was the "best" of the lot, so he could keep his system going on that)...until he could find a suitable Premier 350 to put all those funds toward. His 2300a was tempting, but there were a few cosmetic issues, and besides...I really wanted the 2500a.

I told him as much, and so he remembered me when time came to move his. I'm happy; now if I could only get that PV-15 with Teflon caps back. :tears:

[joeinid]

Very Nice!!!

About a year ago, I was seriously considering a 2300a or 2500a (or buying a non a and updating). I saw a few back then that were in good condition, but did not really know what I was looking at. I could kick myself now. Nice amps. Good luck and let us know how she sounds. I think, scratch that, I know you will be very happy. Sometimes doors close for a reason. :)

Joe

[bgiliberti]

Speaking of CJ solid state gear, would it make sense to have my 1990 vintage MF80 recapped? The caps are not teflon, but they are poly-something. Do those go bad? The power supply is electrolytic caps, I imagine those are shaky. On the other hand, it sounds the same to me as it did when it was new -- so maybe leave well enough alone? Any thoughts?

[ronenash]

Speaking of CJ solid state gear, would it make sense to have my 1990 vintage MF80 recapped? The caps are not teflon, but they are poly-something. Do those go bad? The power supply is electrolytic caps, I imagine those are shaky. On the other hand, it sounds the same to me as it did when it was new -- so maybe leave well enough alone? Any thoughts?

That's a complicated question. If you plan to keep the amp its worth doing some work on it. This will not increase the resell value of the amp so if you do not plan to keep it for a long time its not worth the investment.

Now for the technical part. The electrolitic capacitors in the power suplly are most likely at their end of life after 20 years and will need replacement. You will experience better bass and definition after the cap replacement. As for the polyprop caps in the power supply and signal path, these will last forever. CJ SS amps from that era have glorious midrange but are rolled of at the frequency extremes (the CJ voicing of the era). The polyprop cap replacement will not change this dramatically. It you replace signal path and power suplly bypass caps to teflons you will get more midrange definition and a bigger and more defined soundstage but the treble air and extension will still be typical of the amp and not upto todays standard.

One easy modification that is worht following is removing the input DC blocking capacitor altogether (shorting it is enough you do not actually need to remove it). This of course has the risk that is DC comes in the inputs it will be passed to the speakers but all CJ tube preamps have DC blocking capacitors at their outputs and most modern preamps use them or some other DC sensing circuit so in practical term this should not be a problem.

Hope this helps.

[Rafale]

That's a complicated question. If you plan to keep the amp its worth doing some work on it. This will not increase the resell value of the amp so if you do not plan to keep it for a long time its not worth the investment.

Now for the technical part. The electrolitic capacitors in the power suplly are most likely at their end of life after 20 years and will need replacement. You will experience better bass and definition after the cap replacement. As for the polyprop caps in the power supply and signal path, these will last forever. CJ SS amps from that era have glorious midrange but are rolled of at the frequency extremes (the CJ voicing of the era). The polyprop cap replacement will not change this dramatically. It you replace signal path and power suplly bypass caps to teflons you will get more midrange definition and a bigger and more defined soundstage but the treble air and extension will still be typical of the amp and not upto todays standard.

One easy modification that is worht following is removing the input DC blocking capacitor altogether (shorting it is enough you do not actually need to remove it). This of course has the risk that is DC comes in the inputs it will be passed to the speakers but all CJ tube preamps have DC blocking capacitors at their outputs and most modern preamps use them or some other DC sensing circuit so in practical term this should not be a problem.

Hope this helps.

Brilliant post...Ron.....as usual :thumbsup:

[bgiliberti]

...Now for the technical part. The electrolitic capacitors in the power suplly are most likely at their end of life after 20 years and will need replacement. You will experience better bass and definition after the cap replacement. As for the polyprop caps in the power supply and signal path, these will last forever. CJ SS amps from that era have glorious midrange but are rolled of at the frequency extremes (the CJ voicing of the era). The polyprop cap replacement will not change this dramatically. It you replace signal path and power suplly bypass caps to teflons you will get more midrange definition and a bigger and more defined soundstage but the treble air and extension will still be typical of the amp and not upto todays standard. One easy modification that is worht following is removing the input DC blocking capacitor altogether (shorting it is enough you do not actually need to remove it). This of course has the risk that is DC comes in the inputs it will be passed to the speakers but all CJ tube preamps have DC blocking capacitors at their outputs and most modern preamps use them or some other DC sensing circuit so in practical term this should not be a problem Indeed, it helps very much. Many Thanks! I will have CJ do the electrolytic in the power supply. CJ does not list/offer a teflon upgrade for this amp on their website, but I'm inclined to skip that even if available as I'd like to keep the vintage sound. What effect would removing/shorting the DC blocking circuit caps have on the sound? Do current CJ power amps delete the DC blocking protection? That one makes me a bit nervous, as I may want to swap out other preamps from time to time.

[CDLehner]

So Ron...since you seem to know so much about the insides of C-Js, can you comment on my earlier post? I'd just like to have a working knowledge of the 'a'-upgrade on the 2500.

[ronenash]

Indeed, it helps very much. Many Thanks! I will have CJ do the electrolytic in the power supply. CJ does not list/offer a teflon upgrade for this amp on their website, but I'm inclined to skip that even if available as I'd like to keep the vintage sound. What effect would removing/shorting the DC blocking circuit caps have on the sound? Do current CJ power amps delete the DC blocking protection? That one makes me a bit nervous, as I may want to swap out other preamps from time to time.

Removing a capacitor from the signal path will increase the transparency and detail and have a positive effect on the soundstage and imaging. Take note that this mod is not something that CJ will do or support.

[ronenash]

So Ron...since you seem to know so much about the insides of C-Js, can you comment on my earlier post? I'd just like to have a working knowledge of the 'a'-upgrade on the 2500.

Unfortunately I am not familiar with the MF2500. You can call CJ customer service. They usually provide this information.

[Puma Cat]

If the "A" upgrade on the 2500 is comparable to the 2300, and I suspect that it is, this info is on the C-J website.

[CDLehner]

If the "A" upgrade on the 2500 is comparable to the 2300, and I suspect that it is, this info is on the C-J website.

Actually, it's not PC. That's where I got the info for the 2300 revision, but they don't have the same explanation of the 2500.

I'm with you, I suspect it's the same; but I was just curious to confirm; after all, they were released what...5 years or better apart.

CD

[Puma Cat]

Actually, it's not PC. That's where I got the info for the 2300 revision, but they don't have the same explanation of the 2500.

I'm with you, I suspect it's the same; but I was just curious to confirm; after all, they were released what...5 years or better apart.

CD
Whenever I have questions like this, the fastest and most accurate thing to do is to simply pick up the phone and call Ed at C-J.

"A" revs are generally minor; Series 2 or SE revs are usually major. Its very likely minor revs e.g., to resistor specs, and/or power supply, but nothing major, like the inclusion of Teflon caps.

I do not expect there will be a wholesale difference in sound quality between a 2500 and a 2500A.

[CDLehner]

Whenever I have questions like this, the fastest and most accurate thing to do is to simply pick up the phone and call Ed at C-J.

"A" revs are generally minor; Series 2 or SE revs are usually major. Its very likely minor revs e.g., to resistor specs, and/or power supply, but nothing major, like the inclusion of Teflon caps.

I do not expect there will be a wholesale difference in sound quality between a 2500 and a 2500A.

I have a feeling I might have talked to Ed. I was looking at a 2250 a while back, but the faceplate was a little dinged up. On a whim, I called C-J...and was pleasantly surprised that someone actually picked up the phone. I explained the situation, and the guy put me on hold while he personally went and checked stock for old, 2250 faceplates. He told me they still had some, quoted me a price; I asked about Black (I know, sacrilege...lol)...he told me they still offered 'a'-revisions on these units. Incredibly helpful and personable...and I got the impression he was a "technical" guy (and he just sounded like an "Ed"...lol).

Maybe I will call. I just generally hate to "waste" people's time, with non-monetary issues; you know...I just got a 2500a, can you tell me the difference between the stock unit and the 'a'? There's no money in that for them (as opposed to "I'm thinking about an 'a'-revision...can you tell me what was changed").

Maybe I'll ask what they might recommend, considering the age, to take it to the "next" level.

[bgiliberti]

I have a feeling I might have talked to Ed. I was looking at a 2250 a while back, but the faceplate was a little dinged up. On a whim, I called C-J...and was pleasantly surprised that someone actually picked up the phone. I explained the situation, and the guy put me on hold while he personally went and checked stock for old, 2250 faceplates. He told me they still had some, quoted me a price; I asked about Black (I know, sacrilege...lol)...he told me they still offered 'a'-revisions on these units. Incredibly helpful and personable...and I got the impression he was a "technical" guy (and he just sounded like an "Ed"...lol).

Maybe I will call. I just generally hate to "waste" people's time, with non-monetary issues; you know...I just got a 2500a, can you tell me the difference between the stock unit and the 'a'? There's no money in that for them (as opposed to "I'm thinking about an 'a'-revision...can you tell me what was changed").

Maybe I'll ask what they might recommend, considering the age, to take it to the "next" level.Before you do an upgrade, I would listen to it. The more vintage sound has its charms for sure.

[CDLehner]

Before you do an upgrade, I would listen to it. The more vintage sound has its charms for sure.

Sure, of course. Again...just to be clear; my unit is already a 2500a. I was originally curious exactly what the 'a'-revision entailed. But I also thought...if I was calling to ask about that, I'd just see what other goodies they might recommend in the way of an "upgrade".

But again...I would listen to the darn thing, before I went messin' with it. :yes:

[Puma Cat]

There is no Teflon capacitor upgrade for the MF2500/2500A available from C-J, and I don't believe there are any "goodies" C-J would do above and beyond the "A" upgrade to an MF2500A. The reason for this is is that C-J has always built their gear with the highest possible component quality to begin with, so aside from the the "A" upgrade enhancements, there's really nothing that can be done to this amp that hasn't already been done.

That is probably exactly what Ed will tell you as well.

[jimtranr]

There is no Teflon capacitor upgrade for the MF2500/2500A available from C-J, and I don't believe there are any "goodies" C-J would do above and beyond the "A" upgrade to an MF2500A. The reason for this is is that C-J has always built their gear with the highest possible component quality to begin with, so aside from the the "A" upgrade enhancements, there's really nothing that can be done to this amp that hasn't already been done.

That is probably exactly what Ed will tell you as well.

What Ed told me in an e-mail when I inquired about the "A" upgrade in July:

"The "A" upgrade for the MF2500 replaces some diodes, resistors, and caps. The areas of improvement are pretty much the same as in the cap upgrade for the PR17, but they are not so drastic. Bass definition is also improved."

[Puma Cat]

What Ed told me in an e-mail when I inquired about the "A" upgrade in July:

"The "A" upgrade for the MF2500 replaces some diodes, resistors, and caps. The areas of improvement are pretty much the same as in the cap upgrade for the PR17, but they are not so drastic. Bass definition is also improved."

Thanks, Jim.
That's exactly what I thought it would comprise.

My guess is the "A" upgrade isn't as extensive as the Pr17 Series 2 upgrade because that involves the use of a large no. of Teflon caps and costs $3550.
At that price, it's not something I would consider paying for because the Pr17 is purdy dang sweet just the way it is.

[jimtranr]

$3550.
At that price, it's not something I would consider paying for because the Pr17 is purdy dang sweet just the way it is.

My thought as well, especially given the very audible improvements wrought particularly in the mids and top end by upgrading my IC's and PC's. For me the 17's a keeper.

[Puma Cat]

My thought as well, especially given the very audible improvements wrought particularly in the mids and top end by upgrading my IC's and PC's. For me the 17's a keeper.

Agreed. Even if I decide to keep the CT-5 (which I might, it's sounding mighty good lately) or if I got another, higher-spec C-J preamp, I don't think I would ever sell the Premier 17...it's just too much of a sweetie. it would make a killer pre for a second system in the bedroom or office or wherever. It would be like selling a really fabulous camera lens, like my non-IS Canon 70-200/2.8L; I could never bring myself to part with it.

[dpod4]

Agreed. Even if I decide to keep the CT-5 (which I might, it's sounding mighty good lately) or if I got another, higher-spec C-J preamp, I don't think I would ever sell the Premier 17...it's just too much of a sweetie. it would make a killer pre for a second system in the bedroom or office or wherever. It would be like selling a really fabulous camera lens, like my non-IS Canon 70-200/2.8L; I could never bring myself to part with it.

Good thinking!!

[CDLehner]

What Ed told me in an e-mail when I inquired about the "A" upgrade in July:

"The "A" upgrade for the MF2500 replaces some diodes, resistors, and caps. The areas of improvement are pretty much the same as in the cap upgrade for the PR17, but they are not so drastic. Bass definition is also improved."

Thanks; I think you just saved me a call.

Amp arrived today btw. In general, I think heavier is better, when it comes to an SS amp; after all, we're talking about the toroidal transformer, right? Well...even though the box says 65, it sure feels like 100lbs of drop-dead weight; so it must be a good one. :D

[Puma Cat]

Well...even though the box says 65, it sure feels like 100lbs of drop-dead weight; so it must be a good one. :D

Drop-dead weight...love it! :D

That reminds me of a comment this morning by a political commentator who characterized Newt Gingrich as the "penultimate Washington insider". Hmmm...Newt Gingrich is the next to last Washington insider?

Wonder who the last Washington insider is??? :scratch2:

Ultimately, we may never know... ;)

FWIW, there is no toroidal transformer in Conrad-Johnson amplifiers. They use their own design of transformers. The recent designs were classified as transpectral transformers.

[chessman]

Penultimate is one of those words that gets misused constantly.

[Puma Cat]

Yes, except by organic chemists when they are referring to the penultimate carbon in an aliphatic acid... :p

[ronenash]

FWIW, there is no toroidal transformer in Conrad-Johnson amplifiers. They use their own design of transformers. The recent designs were classified as transpectral transformers.

The CA200 has a toroidal transformer powering it. I am not sure about other amps. I know the ET250 and P350 use a customer made C-Core.

[Puma Cat]

The CA200 has a toroidal transformer powering it. I am not sure about other amps. I know the ET250 and P350 use a customer made C-Core.

Interesting; I stand corrected. I know the Pr5, 8s, 11s, 12s, and 140 use laminated transformers, of course. Maybe the MF2500 uses a toroidal as well.

What is a C-core? Think the LP70, 140, 275s also utilize this?

On another note, how is life with the LP125M SE's? ;)

[Puma Cat]

Just found this on the Stereophile review of the MF2500:

"The massive EI-lamination transformer has split secondary sections to feed the various regulators."

Sounds like the MF also uses laminated transformers, but now we also know why CD found it so drop-dead heavy! ;)

[jimtranr]

Well...even though the box says 65, it sure feels like 100lbs of drop-dead weight; so it must be a good one. :D

My 2500 was certainly "fun"--especially so since it's an "asymmetrical" load--to haul up one flight of stairs when I had to change listening rooms. My aerobic session for that day, huff-puff.

I don't know if you get occasional huge-voltage surges or other spiky anomalies on your electrical grid, but I've had a couple of instances (just a couple over a nine-year-period) where a severe spike has cooked one or more of the four B-supply fuses mounted at chassis rear. (On the 2500, they're 6-amp fast-blows--don't know if that rating has changed on the "A".) So I've laid in a supply to have on hand just in case.

Have fun with your "A". Will be interested in your listening impressions.

[Coppy]

Folks, see my post on the CA200 thread, c-j uses very few designs with toroidal transformers. Maybe in applications where they want the product lighter and smaller.

[ronenash]

On another note, how is life with the LP125M SE's? ;)

Life keeps getting better and better :music:
These are truely a pair of very special amps. I think their most unique quality is the way they deliver the detail in the recordings. On good recordings I can hear detail I have never heard before (small signals between musicians in jazz recordings, piano foot pedal presses, lip moves, etc.). At the same time there is no sign of etch or harshness like you often hear in other hyper detailed amps. Everything is so lush and musical. Absolutely lovely. :yes:

[Coppy]

Life keeps getting better and better :music:
These are truely a pair of very special amps. I think their most unique quality is the way they deliver the detail in the recordings. On good recordings I can hear detail I have never heard before (small signals between musicians in jazz recordings, piano foot pedal presses, lip moves, etc.). At the same time there is no sign of etch or harshness like you often hear in other hyper detailed amps. Everything is so lush and musical. Absolutely lovely. :yes:

Ron,

I guess i should know this but what is upgraded in the LP125M SE monos? Guess they replace some caps with teflon in the signal circuits, coupling and bypass, etc. They must sound terrific.

Bob

[Rafale]

I would be curious to know how the LP125M SE compares to the LP140M

[Puma Cat]

It has less power! :laughin:

[Rafale]

It has less power! :laughin:

but it is a baby ART :yes:

[Puma Cat]

True enough, but the original LP125Ms "non-SE" versions were not built to the same level of engineering specification of the LP140Ms, they were quite a bit less expensive.

My guess is they would be very similar on the whole with SE upgrade. It's possible that the LP140Ms have a beefier power supply...hard to know without specs or talking directly to C-J. I'm confident that both are fantastic, either way you look at it, and I think Ron did a great job in his "minireview" of the LP125M SEs. My guess would be that the LP125M SEs have a midrange magic that the ET250S can't quite match; though the ET250S will more than match it for power and damping factor.

The most important thing is he's enjoying beautiful C-J sound!

[ronenash]

Ron,

I guess i should know this but what is upgraded in the LP125M SE monos? Guess they replace some caps with teflon in the signal circuits, coupling and bypass, etc. They must sound terrific.

Bob

All singal path and power supply bypass capacitors replaced to CJD Teflons. Signal path resistors replaced to the top series Vishay's. Output tubes replaced to KT120.

And yes, they do sound terrific :D

[Puma Cat]

Ron,
I'm really lovin' my KT120s in my LP70S.

[ronenash]

True enough, but the original LP125Ms "non-SE" versions were not built to the same level of engineering specification of the LP140Ms, they were quite a bit less expensive.

My guess is they would be very similar on the whole with SE upgrade. It's possible that the LP140Ms have a beefier power supply...hard to know without specs or talking directly to C-J. I'm confident that both are fantastic, either way you look at it, and I think Ron did a great job in his "minireview" of the LP125M SEs. My guess would be that the LP125M SEs have a midrange magic that the ET250S can't quite match; though the ET250S will more than match it for power and damping factor.

The most important thing is he's enjoying beautiful C-J sound!

Thanks PC. I have actually did some looking into this. Based on what Lew Johnson is saying the LP125 is a simpler and better design which is identical to the ART. Price difference between the non-SE LP125 and the LP140 is attributed to the difference in case work (the LP125 is much cheaper) and the use of CJD polystrene capacitors in the basic LP125 as opposed to teflons in the LP140. Some of the sound difference is attributed to the more complex input circuit in the LP140 (6 triod sections in the LP140 and only 3 in the LP125). Its a balanced design that needs tube with balanced sections to perform at its best. These are hard to get and eventually the simpler design of the LP125 found its way to the ART.
The LP125mSE is an identical circuit to the ART with half the power.

BTW, your LP70 uses three triod section per channel in a design that is very similar to the LP66 and LP125 only it has the nicer case work and teflon caps to boot.

[ronenash]

Ron,
I'm really lovin' my KT120s in my LP70S.

I am sure. I think the KT120 is turning out to be the top power tube available today. Soon we will see designs that were made out for this tube which can extract 100-120w for a pair of KT120.

[joeinid]

Thanks PC. I have actually did some looking into this. Based on what Lew Johnson is saying the LP125 is a simpler and better design which is identical to the ART. Price difference between the non-SE LP125 and the LP140 is attributed to the difference in case work (the LP125 is much cheaper) and the use of CJD polystrene capacitors in the basic LP125 as opposed to teflons in the LP140. Some of the sound difference is attributed to the more complex input circuit in the LP140 (6 triod sections in the LP140 and only 3 in the LP125). Its a balanced design that needs tube with balanced sections to perform at its best. These are hard to get and eventually the simpler design of the LP125 found its way to the ART.
The LP125mSE is an identical circuit to the ART with half the power.

BTW, your LP70 uses three triod section per channel in a design that is very similar to the LP66 and LP125 only it has the nicer case work and teflon caps to boot.

That's interesting. I did not know that. Does anyone know if they plan on using KT120's in the ART amps?

[Coppy]

Some of the sound difference is attributed to the more complex input circuit in the LP140 (6 triod sections in the LP140 and only 3 in the LP125). Its a balanced design that needs tube with balanced sections to perform at its best. These are hard to get and eventually the simpler design of the LP125 found its way to the ART.

Ron,

On my LP140s, the quality of the front center input tube was highly critical. They warned me only to use a tube they had specifically tested for that purpose. The two tubes behind it were followers or buffers and not that important to the sound. They offered me a circuit modification, which of course i had done, that somehow eliminated the leading amplifier tube's critical sensitivity. I suspect they learned something from the ARTs and circuit is a bit simpler now. Not sure what they did to change things but it sure sounds terrific... especially with the KT120 aboard.

Bob

[Rafale]

Some of the sound difference is attributed to the more complex input circuit in the LP140 (6 triod sections in the LP140 and only 3 in the LP125). Its a balanced design that needs tube with balanced sections to perform at its best. These are hard to get and eventually the simpler design of the LP125 found its way to the ART.

Ron,

On my LP140s, the quality of the front center input tube was highly critical. They warned me only to use a tube they had specifically tested for that purpose. The two tubes behind it were followers or buffers and not that important to the sound. They offered me a circuit modification, which of course i had done, that somehow eliminated the leading amplifier tube's critical sensitivity. I suspect they learned something from the ARTs and circuit is a bit simpler now. Not sure what they did to change things but it sure sounds terrific... especially with the KT120 aboard.

Bob

Thank you Bob for this very interesting information, the problem is the same with the LP275M ?

[ronenash]

Ron,

On my LP140s, the quality of the front center input tube was highly critical. They warned me only to use a tube they had specifically tested for that purpose. The two tubes behind it were followers or buffers and not that important to the sound. They offered me a circuit modification, which of course i had done, that somehow eliminated the leading amplifier tube's critical sensitivity. I suspect they learned something from the ARTs and circuit is a bit simpler now. Not sure what they did to change things but it sure sounds terrific... especially with the KT120 aboard.

Bob

That was my exact point. I know of the service bulletin for the LP140. The reason being that you need highly matched sections in your input tube for the circuit to stay balanced. I have the same situation in my Beard P100 but the Beard provides a potentiometer to adjust the balance between sections. Its still a pain in the A** because you need to open the bottom plate every time you change input tubes.

Anyway, the LP140 is still a terrific amp.

[ronenash]

Thank you Bob for this very interesting information, the problem is the same with the LP275M ?

I am not sure about the LP275 but based on the tubes used it seems to use the same topology of the LP140.

[Puma Cat]

My understanding is that the circuits are identical except for the no. of output tubes.

[dpod4]

all i know is i am listening to my cj premier 350 driving my Magnepan 3.7s and it is beyond description. CJ has figured out how to make magic.

[Myles B. Astor]

Thank you Bob for this very interesting information, the problem is the same with the LP275M ?

No the issue was only with the LP140Ms and that's why cj suggested only using their own tested 6922s to prevent any possible issue with oscillation. To wit, never had any issues with my 140s :)

[Puma Cat]

all i know is i am listening to my cj premier 350 driving my Magnepan 3.7s and it is beyond description. CJ has figured out how to make magic.

Yeah, yeah, rub it in....

:D

[joeinid]

Yeah, yeah, rub it in....

:D

That's what I was thinking.

[Rafale]

all i know is i am listening to my cj premier 350 driving my Magnepan 3.7s and it is beyond description. CJ has figured out how to make magic.

Towards the infinity and beyond:D

[Coppy]

I am not sure about the LP275 but based on the tubes used it seems to use the same topology of the LP140.

The LP275 should sound a bit better as the output transformers have an even wider bandwidth. I somewhat jokingly asked Lew to put a couple of those better transformers in my LP140s and he was not amused; they are also larger.
Guess he rightfully thought I should just buy the 275s.

Ron, what circuit change could they have made to solve the 6922 balance issue?

Bob

[CDLehner]

OK guys...I guess I never officially said so; but yes, I got myself a 2500a.

Another member commented to me that I've been suspicious quiet about it so far. Well...the reason is, I think someone needs to hand the seller a dictionary, and turn the page where they define "mint". If I'm using the universally accepted, AG grading scale...this thing is a 5/10 (multiple scratches, including some on the front facia).

There are a myriad of scrapes and scratches on the top-plate, chips and cobwebs on and in the heat-sinks, and even the front face-plate has a slight dent, creating a sharp edge in one corner! To make matters worse, someone tried to use...magic-marker, black paint...I don't know what the hell it was...to try and cover some of these marks on the top-plate up; it only served to make them worse.

I got lucky...then unlucky; there was another listed on AG, in seemingly MUCH better shape...at around the same price. So I contacted the seller, about a refund; but the guy is a jerk, and the one listed on AG was already spoken for anyway.

So...point is, I didn't hook things up right away, while this drama played out. I have at this point, but haven't had a ton of time to devote to listening. Now that it seems I'm "stuck" with it...I guess it's time to get on with the gettin' on. The good news is Ed at C-J (yes, it was he I spoke with before as well...lol) says a top-plate is only $50-some; that'll help with the appearance.

Problem is...as I told the a-hole seller...since he misrepresented the appearance, how I can be sure he didn't misrepresent something I can't see so obviously? I think I'd feel better having Ed give it the once over; make sure everything checks out OK.

Boy, the seller could have gotten a long way with me, by just offering to pay the $50 for that top-plate...here, a picture is worth a thousand words...

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee136/CDLehner/DSC02057.jpg

but no; he thinks I got the bargain of a lifetime, so I should stop whining (btw, if anybody wants the email of this a-hole...let me know; I would avoid at all costs). Hopefully, after a couple hundred dollars into it, I'll be able to sit back and enjoy some magnificent performance.

[Rafale]

incredible....but how one can manage to make that to equipment of this calibre?
That makes me sick, It is shameful :icon_thumbsdown:

[CDLehner]

incredible....but how one can manage to make that to equipment of this caliber?
That makes me sick, It is shameful :icon_thumbsdown:

Yeah...he told me to put my pre-amp on top of it (like he obviously did), and enjoy. I told him I haven't stacked gear since I was 12; in other words, by 13 I knew better!

It's funny; I'm always very careful, and in like 70-some transactions have never gotten burned. I think you're right Rafale; because it was C-J, I think I let my guard down. I just can't imagine anyone with this caliber of gear, would treat it like that. :no:

Que sera, sera; if I fall in love with the sound, I'll make a project out of making it beautiful again. This guy will get his; like the man said...karma's a bitch (or something like that :D)

[Rafale]

CDLehner....Agon transaction ?

[CDLehner]

CDLehner....Agon transaction ?

No...I started talking to this guy a few months back, when he had a 2300a on AG. I passed on that piece, because I really wanted a 2500(or a)...and because of the condition of it (lol). I told him I wanted a 2500 (or a), and he said he had one he'd be selling at some point. His story was he had a 2300a, 2500, and 2500a...and he was going to sell them all, one at a time, leaving the 2500a until last (to keep for himself). He was using the funds toward a Premier 350.

So when the time came, he contacted me directly...not through a listing in AG.

[joeinid]

Don't feel so bad. My MV-60, purchased on Audiogon, was not quite in the shape I was led to believe. After my deal was said and done, another one popped up for sale at the same price in better shape. Oh well.

[Puma Cat]

I really try to never buy gear from someone I don't know without pics.

[joeinid]

I really try to never buy gear from someone I don't know without pics.

Sometimes pictures can be misleading and the seller can stretch the truth a little. I guess I got caught up in the excitement, which did not help. It still sounds pretty good though.

[CDLehner]

I really try to never buy gear from someone I don't know without pics.

He sent a pic of the front PC. I admit it...I'm normally as shrewd as they come; I see ALL the angles (I can tell you 5-6 different schemes I see on AG all the time...lol).

I think this guy disarmed me by a) being friendly and talking shop; especially back when we were bartering over his 2300a. I was very tough on that piece of gear, and passed. But when he emailed me back about a 2500a, I kinda let my guard down I guess. And b) as I said before, it was C-J; I guess I gave the guy a little pass. After all...what C-J owner would treat his kit like this?

Now matter how shrewd I've been in the past, there's always a lesson to be learned. I just got one. :o

[Puma Cat]

. And b) as I said before, it was C-J; I guess I gave the guy a little pass. After all...what C-J owner would treat his kit like this?


Well, judging from the way I've seen some people treat Porsches, I'd have to say nothing surprises me anymore.

[jfray]

I really try to never buy gear from someone I don't know without pics.

This is why I really am only comfortable buying thru other AA members because of situations like this. I have to say every transaction has be flawless!! :yes:

[joeinid]

This is why I really am only comfortable buying thru other AA members because of situations like this. I have to say every transaction has be flawless!! :yes:

:banana:

[ronenash]

The LP275 should sound a bit better as the output transformers have an even wider bandwidth. I somewhat jokingly asked Lew to put a couple of those better transformers in my LP140s and he was not amused; they are also larger.
Guess he rightfully thought I should just buy the 275s.

Ron, what circuit change could they have made to solve the 6922 balance issue?

Bob

It envolves putting some ferrites on the input tube. CJ can provide the bulletin.

[CDLehner]

So...crazy or not, I've been letting my system run 24/7 for about 3 days now. When I first hooked up the 2500a, everything sounded so cold and closed-off; I just wanted to really let things "warm-up" or run-in, before I did anymore listening. WoW!

I decided to drop in and sit for about an hour tonight, and it was nice. I don't know if it's the C-J quality, or just to increase in power...but it makes a difference in the sound of my system. I could place instruments in the soundstage better, the 2500a pushes the bass of my Special 25s effortlessly; it's deep, but "relaxed"...it doesn't feel pushed, it just feels deep and solid. Decay seems longer; the notes hang more in the air. And man can it ROCK the house.

I listened to a LOT of tracks, from this title and that. Some audiophile fodder, some left-of-center goodies...some flat-out, old-school rockers! Don't Let Go, from Foreigner IV DVD-A, Santa Monica from Everclear; Hunger Strike from Temple Of The Dog...even You Shook Me All Night Long from AC/DC (lol...I know...guilty pleasures). My god can this amp flat-out bring it!

I honestly think I've been under-driving my 25s all this time! One of the reported short-comings of some Dyn models, is they need a little goosing to really come alive. My little Belles 150a Hot-Rod is a very sweet amp; but it's rated 125/225. Man, I think you need to light about 300 watts under these puppies, to really make them sing. (I read Stereophile reviewed the 2500a and measured constant output at 295/451...and then for musical transients (reserve power), measured with something called IHF tone-bursts...315/600...and 976 into a 2ohm load!).

So...if I'm going to keep it, now I need to clean 'er up. Ed said a top-plate (which is actually top and non-heatsink side, in one piece) is only about $50, plus the s&h. That'll help make great strides. I hope I can count on the group for advice on some of the other "cosmetic" issues?

Think it's worth it, to have Ed give 'er the once over? He said between 1-1.5 hours on the bench, at $96 per. So ~$200, with s&h, for the peace of mind that everything is up to snuff.

[joeinid]

I personally would feel better having CJ look at it, replace the cover, clean it up and make sure it's 100%. They will know if it needs anything. Then I would keep it for sure.

[bgiliberti]

So...crazy or not, I've been letting my system run 24/7 for about 3 days now. When I first hooked up the 2500a, everything sounded so cold and closed-off; I just wanted to really let things "warm-up" or run-in, before I did anymore listening. WoW!

I decided to drop in and sit for about an hour tonight, and it was nice. I don't know if it's the C-J quality, or just to increase in power...but it makes a difference in the sound of my system. I could place instruments in the soundstage better, the 2500a pushes the bass of my Special 25s effortlessly; it's deep, but "relaxed"...it doesn't feel pushed, it just feels deep and solid. Decay seems longer; the notes hang more in the air. And man can it ROCK the house.

I listened to a LOT of tracks, from this title and that. Some audiophile fodder, some left-of-center goodies...some flat-out, old-school rockers! Don't Let Go, from Foreigner IV DVD-A, Santa Monica from Everclear; Hunger Strike from Temple Of The Dog...even You Shook Me All Night Long from AC/DC (lol...I know...guilty pleasures). My god can this amp flat-out bring it!

I honestly think I've been under-driving my 25s all this time! One of the reported short-comings of some Dyn models, is they need a little goosing to really come alive. My little Belles 150a Hot-Rod is a very sweet amp; but it's rated 125/225. Man, I think you need to light about 300 watts under these puppies, to really make them sing. (I read Stereophile reviewed the 2500a and measured constant output at 295/451...and then for musical transients (reserve power), measured with something called IHF tone-bursts...315/600...and 976 into a 2ohm load!).

So...if I'm going to keep it, now I need to clean 'er up. Ed said a top-plate (which is actually top and non-heatsink side, in one piece) is only about $50, plus the s&h. That'll help make great strides. I hope I can count on the group for advice on some of the other "cosmetic" issues?

Think it's worth it, to have Ed give 'er the once over? He said between 1-1.5 hours on the bench, at $96 per. So ~$200, with s&h, for the peace of mind that everything is up to snuff.I leave my MF80 on all the time. It makes a huge difference. I've had work done by CJ, and they are great and never over-charge. So yes, do it.

[jimtranr]

Think it's worth it, to have Ed give 'er the once over? He said between 1-1.5 hours on the bench, at $96 per. So ~$200, with s&h, for the peace of mind that everything is up to snuff.

I'll add my "yes!" to the chorus, CD. Well worth it, given the inherent quality of the amp and its likely longevity.

Glad, and not surprised, that it came out of its cocoon after a healthy warmup.

I don't think it's just the rated (or bench-tested) power that's lighting up your listening, but the sustained current delivery capability of the amp, given my experience with a plain-vanilla 2500 (I'm considering sending it back for the "A" upgrade after the first of the year) that was superb at driving Maggie 1.6QR's in a moderately large room for a number of years. It's an attribute of the amp's robust power supply and something not necessarily accounted for in watts ratings alone.

Enjoy.

[Puma Cat]

So...crazy or not, I've been letting my system run 24/7 for about 3 days now. When I first hooked up the 2500a, everything sounded so cold and closed-off; I just wanted to really let things "warm-up" or run-in, before I did anymore listening. WoW!

I decided to drop in and sit for about an hour tonight, and it was nice. I don't know if it's the C-J quality, or just to increase in power...but it makes a difference in the sound of my system. I could place instruments in the soundstage better, the 2500a pushes the bass of my Special 25s effortlessly; it's deep, but "relaxed"...it doesn't feel pushed, it just feels deep and solid. Decay seems longer; the notes hang more in the air. And man can it ROCK the house.

I listened to a LOT of tracks, from this title and that. Some audiophile fodder, some left-of-center goodies...some flat-out, old-school rockers! Don't Let Go, from Foreigner IV DVD-A, Santa Monica from Everclear; Hunger Strike from Temple Of The Dog...even You Shook Me All Night Long from AC/DC (lol...I know...guilty pleasures). My god can this amp flat-out bring it!

I honestly think I've been under-driving my 25s all this time! One of the reported short-comings of some Dyn models, is they need a little goosing to really come alive. My little Belles 150a Hot-Rod is a very sweet amp; but it's rated 125/225. Man, I think you need to light about 300 watts under these puppies, to really make them sing. (I read Stereophile reviewed the 2500a and measured constant output at 295/451...and then for musical transients (reserve power), measured with something called IHF tone-bursts...315/600...and 976 into a 2ohm load!).

So...if I'm going to keep it, now I need to clean 'er up. Ed said a top-plate (which is actually top and non-heatsink side, in one piece) is only about $50, plus the s&h. That'll help make great strides. I hope I can count on the group for advice on some of the other "cosmetic" issues?

Think it's worth it, to have Ed give 'er the once over? He said between 1-1.5 hours on the bench, at $96 per. So ~$200, with s&h, for the peace of mind that everything is up to snuff.

CD,
When you posted in your PM to me that your first impressions were okay, but nothing exciting, my first thought was: Leave it on for a week..

A lot of SS components like a good solid warmup to be at their best.

And it's both the C-J quality and the power, but mostly it's the C-J quality. Even my 70Wpc tube amp can rock the house pretty good with no sense of strain while sounding amazing.

I know that less than perfect cosmetics can be disappointing, but given the situation, it might most productive to take a glass half full view and really get to know the amp, and make the most what if can bring to your musical enjoyment of your system. Personally, I think it's worthwhile cleaning up and servicing your MF2500A and just settling in to live with it for a while. If you really like the amp and decide you want it to become a longer-term reference, you can always wait for that perfect example to come along. My guess is regardless of whether you stay with the MF as your main amp for the longer term, it would not be surprised if you don't decide to keep it in "the collection" or for the basis of a second system at some point in time.

It's great to hear that you're enjoying what you're hearing and you're coming to know what all of us C-J owners know...that C-J makes some magical products that can really create an engaging and beguiling musical experience.

If you like what the MF2500A sounds like, just think what a Premier 350 would be like.

I would just leave your amp on continuously, and you may find it will get even better.

Enjoy.

-Stephen

[bgiliberti]

...A lot of SS components like a good solid warmup to be at their best. ...True, in fact, I hear much improvement from the SS amp when it is fully warmed up, which takes several days, and actually quite little change from the tube preamp, which sounds great after about 10 minutes.

[CDLehner]

True, in fact, I hear much improvement from the SS amp when it is fully warmed up, which takes several days, and actually quite little change from the tube preamp, which sounds great after about 10 minutes.

Interesting. I think conventional wisdom and instinct would be the opposite...but there's no question this 2500a sounded cold out of the gate. Guess I'm going to have to put the 'ole Kill-O-Watt on 'er...because I'd like to leave this baby on 24/7. :yes:

[joeinid]

During the week, I turn on my solid state amps when I get home from work and off when I leave for work, and I leave them on all weekend. Seems like a good compromise to me.

[bgiliberti]

During the week, I turn on my solid state amps when I get home from work and off when I leave for work, and I leave them on all weekend. Seems like a good compromise to me.The CJ website says:
Q. Should I leave my preamp/amp on all of the time?
A. To obtain maximum tube life, vacuum-tube products should be switched off when not in use. A good general rule for is that if you will not be listening for more than an hour, turn any tube component off. Conrad-Johnson solid-state preamps (including Sonographe and Motif), on the other hand, are designed to be left on at all times. We recommend switching power amps off when unattended and over night. I ignore the last piece, keeping the power amp on all the time, except when I am on travel or vacation. It's worth the small increment in my electric bill.

[Puma Cat]

So did I when using SS amps...they work and sound better.

[CDLehner]

What are thoughts about Bob Backert at RHB?

[CDLehner]

I'm trying to take the top off the 2500a, and have a peek inside for myself (not that it'll mean anything to me...unless it's something obviously amiss; in which case, it's likely something I would have heard. Probably would post a pic here, and see what the C-J intelligentsia thought). I've removed all the screws from the top and side (remember, the top-plate actually is a single piece, that also encompasses the non-heatsink side)...but there's serious resistance along the seam where the top-plate piece meets the heatsink.

Is that likely attached, like by weld...or should I take a straight-edge screwdriver and carefully wedge it off of there? I don't want to do anymore damage than this thing already has.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee136/CDLehner/DSC02095.jpg

[joeinid]

Are there any screws in the fingers of the heat sink to hold the cover on? I see something white on the 4th groove from the bottom, is that a screw?

[ronenash]

There is no Weld. As Joe said there might be additional screws in the heatsink. In most CJ amps the top cover is presure fit so you need some force to take it off.

[bgiliberti]

On my MF80, which looks a lot like this, the screws on the heat sink hold the heat sink to the chassis, so don't remove them too much, or the heat sinks might fall off. Maybe if they are super tight they are pressing the cover plate, so just slightly loosen. I don't think they go through the cover plate to hold it on.

[CDLehner]

On my MF80, which looks a lot like this, the screws on the heat sink hold the heat sink to the chassis, so don't remove them too much, or the heat sinks might fall off. Maybe if they are super tight they are pressing the cover plate, so just slightly loosen. I don't think they go through the cover plate to hold it on.

Yeah, I think you're on to something here. With the top and side screws removed, the plate can be lifted enough so that I can see what's going on inside (it's only at that seam that things are still somehow attached). There are a series of screws in the heat-sink; some of them...like in the middle of the fins, appear to be holding circuit-boards in place. The ones across the tops of the fins (as pointed out by joeinid), don't appear to secure anything, but the heat-sink to the chassis.

As bgiliberti suggests, I'll loosen them carefully, and see if anything budges...but I need to find a longer allen wrench; these fins are deep! Probably just wait until Monday, and give Ed a quick ring.

[CDLehner]

OK...update; yes, there are 4 allen-screw at the top of the heat-sink that keep the top-plate in place. Cover off...and as I said before, I'm not really sure what I'm looking for...but things don't look so "sparkly" to me...lol, to say the least. Any thoughts?

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee136/CDLehner/DSC02107.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee136/CDLehner/IDSC02108.jpg

Most disconcerting, is this guy; what the hell is it, and is it supposed to look like that?

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee136/CDLehner/DSC02110.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee136/CDLehner/DSC02109.jpg

[bgiliberti]

Most disconcerting, is this guy; what the hell is it, and is it supposed to look like that?It appears to be a Christmas candy cane. Very clever use of innovative materials.

[Puma Cat]

It appears to be a Christmas candy cane. Very clever use of innovative materials.

That's the new Reference Signature Platinum Candy Cane power suppy bus OEM'd from Shunyata Holiday Power Systems division. It provides improved RFI and EMI noise rejection. C-J is well known for clever use of innovative materials.

[joeinid]

It appears to be a Christmas candy cane. Very clever use of innovative materials.

Told ya CJ was one sweet amp :thumbsup:

[ronenash]

OK...update; yes, there are 4 allen-screw at the top of the heat-sink that keep the top-plate in place. Cover off...and as I said before, I'm not really sure what I'm looking for...but things don't look so "sparkly" to me...lol, to say the least. Any thoughts?

Most disconcerting, is this guy; what the hell is it, and is it supposed to look like that


The inside of your amp looks good. I could not detect any messing around with part or soldering of components which will indicate the amp have been repaired in any way. The ugly guy is the mains transformer and looks the same in virtually all CJ power amps. There are many polystrene caps inside (the large white cylinders with yellow sides.
Overall the looks inside are much better than the outside :thumbsup:

[Rafale]

impressive transformer indeed....lot of testosteron :thumbsup:

[CDLehner]

impressive transformer indeed....lot of testosteron :thumbsup:

Uh...yeah, that's about what the oozing substance looks like: "testosterone". ;)

So...all joking aside (and Xmas references), there don't appear to be any obvious signs of abuse or degradation? I know it's hard to tell from those pics. Again, I didn't really know what to look for, and therefore shoot; if anyone suggests poking-around elsewhere, feel free to let me know.

I assume it's still wise to have Ed give her the final once-over? What about fuses? Any of you C-J guys believers? It seems just about everyone swaps them out nowadays...but I emailed David Belles once, about doing it in my 150a Hot-Rod, and he said "save your money"...lol. Is the sentiment for C-Js, or this 2500a any different?

[Rafale]

you mean ''audiophiles'' or ''idiophiles'' fuses ....just kidding
I have not ever tried on my CJ exotic fuses but why not? Some sell stones
http://pic4.audiogon.com/i/a/t/1324154920.jpg
AudiogoN ForSale: Coconut-audio VibraPortal Waves (http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?accstwek&1324522211&1324479180)

[ronenash]

Uh...yeah, that's about what the oozing substance looks like: "testosterone". ;)

So...all joking aside (and Xmas references), there don't appear to be any obvious signs of abuse or degradation? I know it's hard to tell from those pics. Again, I didn't really know what to look for, and therefore shoot; if anyone suggests poking-around elsewhere, feel free to let me know.

I assume it's still wise to have Ed give her the final once-over? What about fuses? Any of you C-J guys believers? It seems just about everyone swaps them out nowadays...but I emailed David Belles once, about doing it in my 150a Hot-Rod, and he said "save your money"...lol. Is the sentiment for C-Js, or this 2500a any different?

I would judge it by how it sounds. If it sounds good than it should be OK. Depending on its age you might need to replace the elecrolytic capacitors at some point. These usually last 15-20 years before they start to degrade. CJ will replace them when if needed.
My best advise is to use the amp for a few month and if you like it and plan to keep it, only then send it to CJ for checkup and service. If you plan to sell it there is no point in the investment as you will not get it back when selling the unit.

[CDLehner]

May be ill-advised...but I just bought another 2500a :o; supposedly in better shape than the first one I got lured into (and I paid a little less to boot).

It'll be interesting to compare the two. I suspect I'll be selling sample #1, but in a more honest manner than he who dumped it on me. Maybe I'm making too much over the condition? After all, it is a 10 year-old model.

Before you sold it, would you spend the $50 for the new top/side plate...or just make the new buyer aware he'll likely want to (but, in the end, let him decide)?

Merry Xmas!

[joeinid]

I would let the new buyer decide because I suspect it's mostly cosmetic. It will be interesting to read if you hear a difference between the two. Maybe post a photo of the inside of the 2nd one to see the difference. You could always send one out to get worked on and sell the other.

Good luck!

[bgiliberti]

I would take the first one and throw it through the window of the guy who sold it to you, who sounds like a total jerk. Ok, not really, and this is Christmas. Yes, I would change the top plate for $50, just as a courtesy. I would not want a top plate that looked like that if I bought it. Just a courtesy, not a $ and cents issue.

[joeinid]

I would take the first one and throw it through the window of the guy who sold it to you, who sounds like a total jerk. Ok, not really, and this is Christmas. Yes, I would change the top plate for $50, just as a courtesy. I would not want a top plate that looked like that if I bought it. Just a courtesy, not a $ and cents issue.

Put the new cover on the 2nd one and the second one's cover on the 1st one :thumbsup:

[bgiliberti]

Put the new cover on the 2nd one and the second one's cover on the 1st one :thumbsup:Even better....:thumbsup:

[CDLehner]

Put the new cover on the 2nd one and the second one's cover on the 1st one :thumbsup:

Eureka! Me likey. :D

[joeinid]

Even better....:thumbsup:

Eureka! Me likey. :D

That's what we are here for :hug:

[CDLehner]

That's what we are here for :hug:

Thank goodness. And btw...if it weren't the forgiving time of year, I'd be right with ya bgiliberti! I'd form an AA C-J posse, and we'd go teach that sonofabitch the meaning of the word "mint". :yes:

But hopefully all is well that ends well. Now you guys just need to tell me how big a step up is the PV-15, from say a PV-14LS2. :D

[CDLehner]

Just out of curiosity, what's "better"...premier 17ls(II) or an ET-2?

[joeinid]

Just out of curiosity, what's "better"...premier 17ls(II) or an ET-2?

Stephen should know ...:scratch2:

[Puma Cat]

I have no idea as I've never heard an ET-2.

It was a TAS Editor's Choice for about three years running.

[Rafale]

I think that it is necessary to reason in term of differences that in value, the ET2 is a scaled down CT5, Prem17LS a baby Art, the choice also depend many of the associated amplifier and the priority sound qualities which are looked for

[jimtranr]

...the choice also depend many of the associated amplifier and the priority sound qualities which are looked for

A good definition of "better" in my book, given all the variables inherent in system interfaces and listening preferences.

[CDLehner]

A good definition of "better" in my book, given all the variables inherent in system interfaces and listening preferences.

Yeah, that's why I put "better" in quotes; there are no absolutes IMO (some may disagree :D).

This would be to mate with my new 2500a. I'm considering a PV-14ls2 on the "low" end; would prefer a PV-15(2), and a Premier 17ls(2) would be a reach.

Have never noticed an ET-2 on AG before; at about the same price as a P17, I was just wondering which one was considered the "superior" piece.

I've actually been told the PF-R is a natural match with the 2500a...and quite neutral. It's funny...I've seen them before, but I tend to like tubes in the pre, SS muscle in the "post"...lol

[Puma Cat]

Yeah, that's why I put "better" in quotes; there are no absolutes IMO (some may disagree :D).

This would be to mate with my new 2500a. I'm considering a PV-14ls2 on the "low" end; would prefer a PV-15(2), and a Premier 17ls(2) would be a reach.

Have never noticed an ET-2 on AG before; at about the same price as a P17, I was just wondering which one was considered the "superior" piece.

I've actually been told the PF-R is a natural match with the 2500a...and quite neutral. It's funny...I've seen them before, but I tend to like tubes in the pre, SS muscle in the "post"...lol

Well, there's no question that the GAT is the finest preamp C-J has ever made; in that respect, it's an absolute, but let's move on to the subject at the hand.

Don't bother with the PF-2L; it isn't what you really want, and it will be another expense you'll have to move just like the McCormack (in fact, I would bet the RLD-1 is a better preamp than the PF-R is).

Both the PV14LS2 and PV15 are fine preamps, and the PV14LS2 is not a "low-end" preamp, unless you're referring to your own price range. But, the PV15 is better and very close in quality, if not equal to, the Premier line of preamps at the time; it was part of the reason C-J dropped the Premier moniker from their product lineup. My local C-J dealer loved the product and sold a TON of them.

The Premier 17LS2 on Audiogon right has just been upgraded to Series 2 spec in May and has not been used since getting it back; it has been sitting on a shelf and it has effectively zero hours on the Teflon caps. I would not recommend this preamp for you because 1) you've said it is a stretch financially and most imortantly, 2) it will take a good 4-6 months of playing real music through it 6-8 hours a day to get the Teflon caps broken in. In the process, you'll probably go through a set of tubes as well. And, C-J says you cannot burn in the teflon caps with signal generators or that wacky burn in disc HiFiSponge used for Dyns, you have to play real music through it. And it will sound dreadful for at least the first 300-500 hours based on my experience with my CT-5. The Teflon caps need a good 1000 hours to burn in before the component is fully burned in.

You have to ask yourself if you have the patience for dealing with the Teflon cap burn-in hell (and who really does? I wouldn't want to have to go through it again). You may find yourself second-guessing yourself just as the guy who sold me my CT-5 after only two months and I did after getting it. They do get there eventually, but anyone who has dealt with it will tell you it takes the patience of a saint.

Given, that, I'd get the PV15 and call it a day. It will be the perfect entry into the brand to see what C-J preamps are all about. If you find you like C-J preamps as many of us do, and want to move up the line, you can get your PV-15 upgraded with Teflon caps (and deal with the burn-in hell) or better yet, look for a well run-in Premier 17, Premier 16, CT-5, ET-3SE or ET-5 at some point in the future.

[dpod4]

Man all these threads about the GAT make me want to get one! I'd love to know how it compares to VAC Renaissance preamp.

[joeinid]

Man all these threads about the GAT make me want to get one! I'd love to know how it compares to VAC Renaissance preamp.

Oh, it blows it out of the water :thumbsup: I'm not sure, but I know it's better than the ET5 and that is pretty spectacular so it must be awesome!

[bgiliberti]

Well, there's no question that the GAT is the finest preamp C-J has ever made; in that respect, it's an absolute, but let's move on to the subject at the hand.

Don't bother with the PF-2L; it isn't what you really want, and it will be another expense you'll have to move just like the McCormack (in fact, I would bet the RLD-1 is a better preamp than the PF-R is).

Both the PV14LS2 and PV15 are fine preamps, and the PV14LS2 is not a "low-end" preamp, unless you're referring to your own price range. But, the PV15 is better and very close in quality, if not equal to, the Premier line of preamps at the time; it was part of the reason C-J dropped the Premier moniker from their product lineup. My local C-J dealer loved the product and sold a TON of them.

The Premier 17LS2 on Audiogon right has just been upgraded to Series 2 spec in May and has not been used since getting it back; it has been sitting on a shelf and it has effectively zero hours on the Teflon caps. I would not recommend this preamp for you because 1) you've said it is a stretch financially and most imortantly, 2) it will take a good 4-6 months of playing real music through it 6-8 hours a day to get the Teflon caps broken in. In the process, you'll probably go through a set of tubes as well. And, C-J says you cannot burn in the teflon caps with signal generators or that wacky burn in disc HiFiSponge used for Dyns, you have to play real music through it. And it will sound dreadful for at least the first 300-500 hours based on my experience with my CT-5. The Teflon caps need a good 1000 hours to burn in before the component is fully burned in.

You have to ask yourself if you have the patience for dealing with the Teflon cap burn-in hell (and who really does? I wouldn't want to have to go through it again). You may find yourself second-guessing yourself just as the guy who sold me my CT-5 after only two months and I did after getting it. They do get there eventually, but anyone who has dealt with it will tell you it takes the patience of a saint.

Given, that, I'd get the PV15 and call it a day. It will be the perfect entry into the brand to see what C-J preamps are all about. If you find you like C-J preamps as many of us do, and want to move up the line, you can get your PV-15 upgraded with Teflon caps (and deal with the burn-in hell) or better yet, look for a well run-in Premier 17, Premier 16, CT-5, ET-3SE or ET-5 at some point in the future.I agree with PC on the patience required for Teflons, but my experience (at 1200 hours) on my Classic SE is that it really was worth it. I would never go back to non-SE. At least on a preamp, because you can run it with the power amp off to burn in. At 3 hours of playing per day, a Teflon power amp would take almost a year to burn in, so that is a more dubious proposition.

[CDLehner]

I agree with PC on the patience required for Teflons, but my experience (at 1200 hours) on my Classic SE is that it really was worth it. I would never go back to non-SE. At least on a preamp, because you can run it with the power amp off to burn in. At 3 hours of playing per day, a Teflon power amp would take almost a year to burn in, so that is a more dubious proposition.

As PC knows, I let a PV-15 with Teflon caps slip through my hands. :sigh: In my defense...I didn't even have my C-J power-amp yet. So that's where my sights are set going forward. I might also consider the right PV-14LS2 (never meant to denigrate the unit...only in relation to a PV-15 or LS17), or LS17.

That's a great point you make bgiliberti; that the pre can be burned-in without actually conducting sound. My wife tires of days and weeks of run-in, for various components; I don't think a year would go over so well (with me either) :no:

I guess you'd blow through a set of tubes, but other than that. BTW...the new (well, you know what I mean) 2500a is scheduled to arrive tomorrow.

[bgiliberti]

...I guess you'd blow through a set of tubes, but other than that. BTW...the new (well, you know what I mean) 2500a is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. I can't recall what hourage CJ recommends on pre amp tubes, but I do it once a year, which is probably less often than CJ recommends based on hours, but I have heard that CJ are very conservative on tube life. Some people go 2000 hours, and they say it sounds just ducky. :music:

[jimtranr]

I can't recall what hourage CJ recommends on pre amp tubes, but I do it once a year...

That's what I do with my PR17. It gets a lot of playing time in between tube changes, but my ears tell me that the EH's don't seem to mind the mileage.

[Coppy]

c-j's standard response to the life of pre tubes is usually 2-3000 hours.

Some of the comments about teflon caps seem a bit extreme. Personally, I've always enjoyed listening to all the pre and power amps with teflons even during the break-in period... which for me seems much more like 400 hours.

Enjoy...
Bob

[Rafale]

Personally, I've always enjoyed listening to all the pre and power amps with teflons even during the break-in period...

Enjoy...
Bob

+1

[bgiliberti]

c-j's standard response to the life of pre tubes is usually 2-3000 hours.
Some of the comments about teflon caps seem a bit extreme. Personally, I've always enjoyed listening to all the pre and power amps with teflons even during the break-in period... which for me seems much more like 400 hours.
Enjoy...BobGood point. At 400-600 hours I knew I was better off than with the non-SE version.

[Coppy]

Good point. At 400-600 hours I knew I was better off than with the non-SE version.

There you go... a new benchmark. And further improvements to look forward to as well.

:newyears3:

Happy New Year!

Bob

[CDLehner]

Pics of "new" 2500a...

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee136/CDLehner/DSC02153.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee136/CDLehner/DSC02154.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee136/CDLehner/DSC02155.jpg

Again...I don't really know what I'm looking for, but things do look a little different to me. The caps look a little different; these have the "Conrad-Johnson" sticker on them. Not sure if that means this one is likely "newer"...or if maybe the other was an 'a'-upgrade, whereas I was told this was a "factory"-a?

You guys assure me this transformer...while it looks askew...is perfectly fine; gooey-power goodness even? lol. And this unit has some damping between the top-plate and transformer. Home-spun, or official C-J tweak?

Haven't hooked it up yet...still have the "old" one plugging away; but this one looks 10x better! Face-plate is scratch and scrape free, the top-plate is as good as could be expected in a unit of this age; and no dust-bunnies down in the heat-sinks (oh yeah...and no musty, basement smell)!

I'll hook 'er up, get 'er warm; call Ed for that new top-plate. Make the switcheroo...and then there'll be a 2500a up for grabs (if anyone's interested...lol).

[Puma Cat]

You guys assure me this transformer...while it looks askew...is perfectly fine; gooey-power goodness even? lol. And this unit has some damping between the top-plate and transformer. Home-spun, or official C-J tweak?


That's what all the transformers look like as Ronenash has already noted; no one's been in there....doubt they've even ever had the cover off. Some C-J caps have the C-J name on them, some don't.

Comparing two pics of the two set of shots side by side in Photoshop, there are some detail differences in the caps and resistors, but my guess is there is no functional difference.

My guess is the amps will sound very similar to one another, if not identical. My two Premier 11As were indistinguishable from one another sonically (they were also only 10 units apart in serial nos.)

[CDLehner]

Okey dokey 'chokey :D

[ronenash]

CJ amps are hand built as opposed to many other brands that are machine built in an automated process. There can be some minor variances between the two units which have no effect on the performance of the amplifier.
Some capacitors have CJD (Conrad Johnson Design) printed on them and some later models have the full name. As for the transformer damping it looks like a minor revision CJ have done to avoid transformer hum but I am not sure. Again, based on the pictures the amp does not look like it has been messed with.

Enjoy the music,

[jimtranr]

As for the transformer damping it looks like a minor revision CJ have done to avoid transformer hum but I am not sure.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is. My plain-vanilla 2500's transformer hum excites the metal cover plate enough to amplify the "mmmm" to a level that can be heard a good three or so feet from the amp. Mass loading the cover with a pair of Mapleshade brass pucks attenuates the hum so that it's audible only when I'm very close to the unit.

[CDLehner]

OK, thanks guys. I'm not normally a "tinker under the hood" guy (although I have been inside my Belles Hot-Rod, 21a...and now both of these 2500a lately); like I've said, I don't even really know what I'm looking for. It's just that experience with my first 2500a freaked me out a bit.

Ready to get a top-plate, sell one off...listen for a bit, and enjoy. Thanks again.

[Puma Cat]

If you want to see some big transformers, take a look at these puppies: Conrad-Johnson Premier 5 monoblocks from 1983.

http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/Robqus%20room-6.jpg

...and they have the same amber transformer "gook" on them the MF2500A does...
http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/Robqus%20room-5.jpg

I should point out that they sounding f***ing fantastic, BTW.

[CDLehner]

I wouldn't be surprised if it is. My plain-vanilla 2500's transformer hum excites the metal cover plate enough to amplify the "mmmm" to a level that can be heard a good three or so feet from the amp. Mass loading the cover with a pair of Mapleshade brass pucks attenuates the hum so that it's audible only when I'm very close to the unit.

So...when I move the top-plate from this latest 2500a, over to the previous one that I'll sell...I'll want to dampen the new top-plate I'm going to get from C-J.

Any suggestions for DIY damping?

[CDLehner]

I have to tell ya...I am loving the way this 2500a sounds with my Special 25s. :D

To this point, I kinda had a love/hate thing going on with the 25s. They can be magical, with the right material...and when you're in the mood to, that 8" Evidence driver can rock the house like nobody's business (considering it's a monitor, of course).

But they can also be a bit forward/revealing/shouty, etc; usually with the "wrong" material (which, hey...I just can't let the tail wag the dog on that one)...and I'm told they're very susceptible to electronics upstream.

Now...I'm not saying everything will sound great now; I'm sure I'll still have to guard against some GIGO. But last night I did some listening that blew my socks off!

So...with the highs being higher, now that the 2500a is in the mix...I think I can deal with the "lows", and the 25s may be getting a reprieve. Also, the 2500a seems to be playing quite nicely with the Belles 21a pre-amp. So I can stay put there for a while, and keep an eye out for another PV-15 to come around...and that might makes things even that much better.

Oh yeah...but I still need to get those panels up PC. :sigh:

[joeinid]

Hi Stephen,

I LOVE the way the amps slide out. Everything looks clean as a whistle. Very nicely done !!!

:banana:

If you want to see some big transformers, take a look at these puppies: Conrad-Johnson Premier 5 monoblocks from 1983.

http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/Robqus%20room-6.jpg

...and they have the same amber transformer "gook" on them the MF2500A does...
http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/Robqus%20room-5.jpg

I should point out that they sounding f***ing fantastic, BTW.

[bgiliberti]

If you want to see some big transformers, take a look at these puppies: Conrad-Johnson Premier 5 monoblocks from 1983.

http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/Robqus%20room-6.jpg

...and they have the same amber transformer "gook" on them the MF2500A does...
http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/Robqus%20room-5.jpg

I should point out that they sounding f***ing fantastic, BTW.Two questions: What are the big blue cylinder things? And, is the Dynaudio 25 the lineal descendant of the old Dynaco a25 that was so great in the 1970s? I think they were from Denmark also....

[Puma Cat]

The big blue things are filter caps for the power supply...the bigger, the better. These are huge.

The Dynaudio Special 25 (S25) is in no way related to the Dynaco A25; Dynaco was an American company started by David Hafler. The Dynaudio S25 was a special edition speaker to celebrate Dynaudio's 25 annniversary. It sold extremely well and is a bit of a cult speaker. It was just re-released in 2011 as a limited run of 4500 pairs, I believe.

[CDLehner]

The big blue things are filter caps for the power supply...the bigger, the better. These are huge.

The Dynaudio Special 25 (S25) is in no way related to the Dynaco A25; Dynaco was an American company started by David Hafler. The Dynaudio S25 was a special edition speaker to celebrate Dynaudio's 25 annniversary. It sold extremely well and is a bit of a cult speaker. It was just re-released in 2011 as a limited run of 4500 pairs, I believe.

Actually Stephen...the 2011 re-issue was limited to just 75 pairs (and as you likely know, is rumored to be the last).

I guess you never noticed my tag at AVS; "I am 27 of 75" :D

[ronenash]

Two questions: What are the big blue cylinder things? And, is the Dynaudio 25 the lineal descendant of the old Dynaco a25 that was so great in the 1970s? I think they were from Denmark also....

These are the power supply electrolytic capacitors. CJ no longer use electrolytics in the audio circuits of their amps. Its all polyprop now which sounds much better and is more expensive to use.

[bgiliberti]

The big blue things are filter caps for the power supply...the bigger, the better. These are huge.

The Dynaudio Special 25 (S25) is in no way related to the Dynaco A25; Dynaco was an American company started by David Hafler. The Dynaudio S25 was a special edition speaker to celebrate Dynaudio's 25 annniversary. It sold extremely well and is a bit of a cult speaker. It was just re-released in 2011 as a limited run of 4500 pairs, I believe.FYI. It looks like Dynaco speakers were made by SEAS of Denmark. Same guys make the tweeters in the Harbeth 40 and 30. The Dynaco A25 was a great speaker in its day. Dynaco also distributed the famous SEAS 'A-Series' of bookshelf loudspeakers that were manufactured in Denmark, using input from Dynaco's David Hafler and SEAS' Ragnar Lian. The A-Series were marketed between from 1970 until Dynaco's demise in the 1980s. The Dynaco A-25 model proved to be extremely successful, selling over 600,000 units. A modified aperiodic bass reflex design using SEAS speakers in a handsome wood cabinet, the A-25 sold for $79.95 each in 1969[2] making it competitive with much more expensive loudspeakers. The patented aperiodic (essentially non-resonant) woofer design utilized a highly-damped vent instead of a reflex port, whose acoustic resistance is very carefully controlled. The resistant venting action lowered the "Q" of the system and reduced impedance variation near resonance in the A-Series speakers.

[Puma Cat]

FYI. It looks like Dynaco speakers were made by SEAS of Denmark. Same guys make the tweeters in the Harbeth 40 and 30. The Dynaco A25 was a great speaker in its day.

Not surprised.

Dyanaco was an American company, though, and in no way wasrelated to Dynaudio.

[Puma Cat]

Actually Stephen...the 2011 re-issue was limited to just 75 pairs (and as you likely know, is rumored to be the last).

I guess you never noticed my tag at AVS; "I am 27 of 75" :D

Cool, thanks for the info on the 2011 reissue, I knew it was a much smaller number than the original run. IIRC, the original run was supposed to be limited but they kept making more due to customer demand. No question that the S25 has a cult status with Dyn enthusiasts.

[Puma Cat]

I have to tell ya...I am loving the way this 2500a sounds with my Special 25s. :D

To this point, I kinda had a love/hate thing going on with the 25s. They can be magical, with the right material...and when you're in the mood to, that 8" Evidence driver can rock the house like nobody's business (considering it's a monitor, of course).

But they can also be a bit forward/revealing/shouty, etc; usually with the "wrong" material (which, hey...I just can't let the tail wag the dog on that one)...and I'm told they're very susceptible to electronics upstream.

Now...I'm not saying everything will sound great now; I'm sure I'll still have to guard against some GIGO. But last night I did some listening that blew my socks off!

So...with the highs being higher, now that the 2500a is in the mix...I think I can deal with the "lows", and the 25s may be getting a reprieve. Also, the 2500a seems to be playing quite nicely with the Belles 21a pre-amp. So I can stay put there for a while, and keep an eye out for another PV-15 to come around...and that might makes things even that much better.

Oh yeah...but I still need to get those panels up PC. :sigh:

That's great to hear, CD! I am very happy the MF2500A is working out so well for you. :thumbsup:

I've thought frequently about picking up an MF2500A, but right now my priority has to be a quality phono stage with two inputs.

I think that if you can find that dream PV-15, you'll find the performance that much better. C-J preamps and amps match up really well.

Enjoy the new amp.

[bgiliberti]

That's great to hear, CD! I am very happy the MF2500A is working out so well for you. :thumbsup:

I've thought frequently about picking up an MF2500A, but right now my priority has to be a quality phono stage with two inputs.

I think that if you can find that dream PV-15, you'll find the performance that much better. C-J preamps and amps match up really well.

Enjoy the new amp.Not sure, but isn't the non-se Classic basically a PV15 without balance control? Available new with warranty for $1,500 -- quite a deal.

[CDLehner]

I think that if you can find that dream PV-15, you'll find the performance that much better. C-J preamps and amps match up really well.

I think so too Stephen. I used to think "best man for the job", but now I think there's something to be said for the synergy between pre and power from the same maker; especially if the maker is a quality outfit like C-J.

CD

[joeinid]

I think so too Stephen. I used to think "best man for the job", but now I think there's something to be said for the synergy between pre and power from the same maker; especially if the maker is a quality outfit like C-J.

CD

:yes:

:banana:

+1

[Puma Cat]

Not sure, but isn't the non-se Classic basically a PV15 without balance control? Available new with warranty for $1,500 -- quite a deal.

I dunno, I think the Classic is more based on the PV12 circuit, not the PV15. The PV15 was quite a bit more expensive when it was produced. FWIW, I auditioned a Classic preamp for an entire weekend in my home system when I had my PV12, and I could not tell virtually any difference between them. Going from my PV12 to my Premier 17 was a big jump, but not as big as going from my Premier 11A amp to my LP70S. My Koetsu Urushi Vermilion cartridge and LP70S probably made the biggest single amplification chain-based improvements in my system.

[Puma Cat]

I think so too Stephen. I used to think "best man for the job", but now I think there's something to be said for the synergy between pre and power from the same maker; especially if the maker is a quality outfit like C-J.

CD

One thing I noted when I went to an all C-J system is the background noise level went way down, and this with an all tube system.

[CDLehner]

One thing I noted when I went to an all C-J system is the background noise level went way down, and this with an all tube system.

Yeah...I'm not entirely sure, but I think that's one of the things the Auricap upgrade in my Belles 21a helps with; noise-floor.

Again...the 21a and 2500a are pairing quite nicely, for now. It affords me the luxury of waiting for the right C-J to come back around. A PV-15 is my first choice; if one doesn't come around for a while, I might consider a PV-14LS2...and a Premier 17 would be a reach for me.

[Puma Cat]

Yeah...I'm not entirely sure, but I think that's one of the things the Auricap upgrade in my Belles 21a helps with; noise-floor.

Again...the 21a and 2500a are pairing quite nicely, for now. It affords me the luxury of waiting for the right C-J to come back around.

Yes, and I think that's the key thing.

[CDLehner]

Well all...I think my trial of C-J might be coming to an end. Most people probably wouldn't even bother to post this...because I just know I'm going to get beat-up (especially from a certain Vinyl-loving, C-J advocate :yes:); but I love this hobby, and appreciate when people share as an opportunity to learn how others approach it.

Looking back at the comments in this thread, I cringe a bit at the prospect of saying this...because I've had so much enthusiasm for the amp. And that's all true; it's a GREAT amp. I've read reviews...after the fact (I never like to be influenced by them before I make a purchasing decision...if I can help it)...and it gets great pub, and it's all well-deserved.

So...why did I just buy something else to audition? Well, Stephen will tell you he thinks I have audiophile ADHD...lol. Fair enough, but not to the extent that I want to; I just want a system that I love...but that I don't think about, so it can just get out of the way and I'm left to focus on the music. For whatever reason, I keep listening for the mf-2500a, and it's a bit of a "distraction"...good as it is.

Maybe it's just the fact that it's still new-ish...and it's just a matter of time, and I haven't given it that time; to just get used to it, and not be looking for its signature on my music. Maybe that's easier...and sooner...said than done with some amps. I do feel like this amp (I won't lump all of C-J in, based on my one experience) has a signature; has its own sound, rather than being neutral. Now, it's a great sound..."it just sounds right"...lol; but it's still something to be "aware" of, and I'm too aware of it.

You'll never hear me say anything bad about my experience...except to be honest about it, and say what I've said here: that perhaps C-J has its own sound...and it's great, if you take to it. I'm going to go back to my first girl; (David) Belles was the first, really hi-end amp I ever owned...and I fell hard. My 150a Hot-Rod left a little something to be desired...especially as I moved up in speakers; but then again, it is almost 15 years old. So I'm going to try a 150a Reference v2.

I'm not giving up on the mf-2500s sight unseen (hearing unheard?); I'm trying to sell the infamous "extra" one, and that'll still leave me my unit to audition against the new Belles. I just have a feeling my Belles 21a pre (which I have never grown tired of...great unit) will really take to his new sibling.

C-J may very well be in my future. Maybe the newer gear has less of that C-J flavor, and is easier to forget about? And I plan to stay-tuned to the forum. It's a great bunch, and I haven't found them to be excluding of those who don't have C-J; and I sure hope they don't start now...lol.

[joeinid]

Hi Chris,

I felt the passion in that post. As your signature says "The longest way around, is the sweetest way home" -Eleanor Friedberger seems to hit the nail on the head. I've been through bunch of gear and a lot of us like to experiment. Belles makes great gear and was recommended to me by a dealer I used to talk to down south. A very nice guy who loves David's gear. I bet the new stuff is even better and more awesome, so enjoy. :)

[rthomeint]

Well all...I think my trial of C-J might be coming to an end. Most people probably wouldn't even bother to post this...because I just know I'm going to get beat-up (especially from a certain Vinyl-loving, C-J advocate :yes:); but I love this hobby, and appreciate when people share as an opportunity to learn how others approach it.

Looking back at the comments in this thread, I cringe a bit at the prospect of saying this...because I've had so much enthusiasm for the amp. And that's all true; it's a GREAT amp. I've read reviews...after the fact (I never like to be influenced by them before I make a purchasing decision...if I can help it)...and it gets great pub, and it's all well-deserved.

So...why did I just buy something else to audition? Well, Stephen will tell you he thinks I have audiophile ADHD...lol. Fair enough, but not to the extent that I want to; I just want a system that I love...but that I don't think about, so it can just get out of the way and I'm left to focus on the music. For whatever reason, I keep listening for the mf-2500a, and it's a bit of a "distraction"...good as it is.

Maybe it's just the fact that it's still new-ish...and it's just a matter of time, and I haven't given it that time; to just get used to it, and not be looking for its signature on my music. Maybe that's easier...and sooner...said than done with some amps. I do feel like this amp (I won't lump all of C-J in, based on my one experience) has a signature; has its own sound, rather than being neutral. Now, it's a great sound..."it just sounds right"...lol; but it's still something to be "aware" of, and I'm too aware of it.

You'll never hear me say anything bad about my experience...except to be honest about it, and say what I've said here: that perhaps C-J has its own sound...and it's great, if you take to it. I'm going to go back to my first girl; (David) Belles was the first, really hi-end amp I ever owned...and I fell hard. My 150a Hot-Rod left a little something to be desired...especially as I moved up in speakers; but then again, it is almost 15 years old. So I'm going to try a 150a Reference v2.

I'm not giving up on the mf-2500s sight unseen (hearing unheard?); I'm trying to sell the infamous "extra" one, and that'll still leave me my unit to audition against the new Belles. I just have a feeling my Belles 21a pre (which I have never grown tired of...great unit) will really take to his new sibling.

C-J may very well be in my future. Maybe the newer gear has less of that C-J flavor, and is easier to forget about? And I plan to stay-tuned to the forum. It's a great bunch, and I haven't found them to be excluding of those who don't have C-J; and I sure hope they don't start now...lol.

In this hobby you have to find your own way ultimately. Yours is the only opinion that counts when it comes to spending your money for your musical pleasure. I know some people who are in the component of the month club and never figure that out. I use to go thru a lot of equipment just for the sake of change but I would always come back to CJ, I realized that's the sound I like. I know people who just a passionate about Krell, Audio Research and Mcintosh. I hope the 150a Reference v2 works out for you.

[lvas12]

ha to funny. I bought CDLenhenner extra MF2500a and it will be delivered tomorrow. Also bought nissat PV-15 to pair with it and it come in today. whats funny is that I sold a Belles 150a reference v2 to fund the mf2500a purchase. I sold a sonagrahe sa-400 last year before I bought the Belles and I always wished I hadn't. I'm hoping the MF2500a is even better than that SA-400 was.

[CDLehner]

ha to funny. I bought CDLenhenner extra MF2500a and it will be delivered tomorrow. Also bought nissat PV-15 to pair with it and it come in today. whats funny is that I sold a Belles 150a reference v2 to fund the mf2500a purchase. I sold a sonagrahe sa-400 last year before I bought the Belles and I always wished I hadn't. I'm hoping the MF2500a is even better than that SA-400 was.

What's really funny is...since I was such a fan of my old Belles 150a Hot-Rod...I bought a 150a Ref v2 to stack up against it...lol. Don't worry; I think the mf-2500a "wins"...and that's what I'm keeping.

IDK the SA-400, but we'll assume C-J was a step above the Sonographe line, yes? FWIW, I spoke with Ed at C-J yesterday... about which pre-amp I'm considering for my 2500a...and it was quite obvious he thought very highly of the 2500a. :D

Enjoy lvas!

[jwhite613]

lvas12... Welcome To AA!!!


:welcome2.:

[chessman]

Ivas12, welcome aboard and thanks for your support right out of the gate! :wave:

[jimtranr]

Welcome, Ivas12. I suspect you'll enjoy your 2500A.

[CDLehner]

ha to funny. I bought CDLenhenner extra MF2500a and it will be delivered tomorrow. Also bought nissat PV-15 to pair with it and it come in today. whats funny is that I sold a Belles 150a reference v2 to fund the mf2500a purchase. I sold a sonagrahe sa-400 last year before I bought the Belles and I always wished I hadn't. I'm hoping the MF2500a is even better than that SA-400 was.

lvas, I see it arrived today; be sure to let me know your thoughts (don't have to be public if they're not good for some reason...lol). Hope you're busy enjoying!

[CDLehner]

lvas, I see it arrived today; be sure to let me know your thoughts (don't have to be public if they're not good for some reason...lol). Hope you're busy enjoying!

lvas...that good huh? :thumbsup:

[mchad]

Chris, I've been eyeing your MF2500a as I'm looking for an amp thats able to drive whatever might roll thru the door. :yes:

I have a question for the board members here in regards to the way the MF2500a sounds....

My only experience with CJ is with a pair of Motif MS100 SS amps. Has anyone here listened to both the MS100 and the MF2500a to compare? Are they similar in sonic signature or completely different breeds?

Thanks,
Mike