Mbl 120

[m.tonetti]

Who has heard the new MBL 120?
Tips, impressions, ...?

Below some additional information that I found online.

Images gallery:
MBL 120, ny mellanstor rundstrålande högtalare (http://www.highendforum.se/archives/1095)

Brochure:
MBL 120 Catalog (http://www.mbl-spain.es/media/aaa358d6582b0ffff81fcffff8709.pdf)

Test of the german magazine "Stereo" (11/2010):
Test MBL 120 en STEREO (Germany) (http://www.mbl-spain.es/media/6fede0238d659421ffff81caffff8709.pdf)

Laboratory measurements associated with the test:
MBL 120 banco de pruebas STEREO (http://www.mbl-spain.es/media/5c0c17771590a82effff817cffff8709.pdf)

Incidentally, the spanish site of MBL is very rich in information/test/images:
MBL - Unique High End Audio (http://www.mbl-spain.es/index2.html)

[m.tonetti]

The MBL speakers positioning intrigues me.
MBL public image of the type shown below (taken from the catalog section on their Website (http://www.mbl.de/en/)) and then several times I have seen placed as a dynamic speaker!
Why?

http://www.massimotonetti.com/wp-content/uploads/MBL Emission.jpg

[Still-One]

The MBL speakers positioning intrigues me.
MBL public image of the type shown below (taken from the catalog section on their Website (http://www.mbl.de/en/)) and then several times I have seen placed as a dynamic speaker!
Why?

http://www.massimotonetti.com/wp-content/uploads/MBL Emission.jpg
Massimo
I am not sure I understand your question. All of the MBL line is omni directional in the mids and highs. The 101's and Xtremes are also omni-directional in the bass area as they use larger "petal" drivers for those frequencies too, where the 120's, 121,'s, 116's and 111F's use conventional side firing bass drivers.

That picture is a bit misleading. The best sound from the speakers still comes from sitting in the sweet spot. Unless you are using the system for background music you wouldn't normally sit off to the sides.

Jim

[m.tonetti]

...
That picture is a bit misleading. The best sound from the speakers still comes from sitting in the sweet spot. Unless you are using the system for background music you wouldn't normally sit off to the sides.

Jim

I agree.

[m.tonetti]

Jim,

what are the advantages and disadvantages of an omnidirectional speaker compared to a conventional dynamic speaker?
They are suitable for jazz music?
The soundstage is wide, narrow, deep?
The focus of the instruments is optimal?

Thanks in advance.

[Still-One]

Jim,

what are the advantages and disadvantages of an omnidirectional speaker compared to a conventional dynamic speaker?
They are suitable for jazz music?
The soundstage is wide, narrow, deep?
The focus of the instruments is optimal?

Thanks in advance.
Massimo
All good questions, and the answers might depend on what you are used to hearing. I cannot speak for all omni-directional speakers but as far as MBL goes, they sound closer to live music than most traditional dynamic speakers. The imaging is excellent but it is different from other quality speakers that might lock instruments between your speakers. In my opinion that is not how live music sounds. Most recording sound like recordings, whereas live music envelops you.
I always caution others to listen to MBL's for some time before deciding whether they are right for you. I know I liked the sound from day 1, but then I would go home and think, hey my speakers lock the image better. Then I would hear the MBL's again and they just sounded more like music than a recording.
Most comments and reviews about MBL mention how the speakers just plain disappear. Save for those few recordings where the intent is for you to hear a given sound coming from a specific speaker, I seldom hear my speakers.

-You are asking the wrong person as to whether they are suitable for Jazz, others here know I place most Jazz just above Rap so it seldom gets played on my system.

-The soundstage is wide and pretty deep in general especially if you can keep them away from the room boundaries.

-Focus is something you have to decide on yourself. Some people have issues with how they "might" smear the sound a bit, but again this is exactly what you get when listening to live music.

As I listen while responding to your questions, the speakers have disappeared, vocals and instruments come from between my speakers, yet the room is filled with music.

Jim

[m.tonetti]

MBL Special Report (http://www.mbl-spain.es/media/6fede0238d659421ffff81acffff8709.pdf)

MBL Reference Line Catalog (http://www.mbl-spain.es/media/6fede0238d659421ffff81adffff8709.pdf)

[m.tonetti]

Massimo
All good questions, and the answers might depend on what you are used to hearing. I cannot speak for all omni-directional speakers but as far as MBL goes, they sound closer to live music than most traditional dynamic speakers. The imaging is excellent but it is different from other quality speakers that might lock instruments between your speakers. In my opinion that is not how live music sounds. Most recording sound like recordings, whereas live music envelops you.
I always caution others to listen to MBL's for some time before deciding whether they are right for you. I know I liked the sound from day 1, but then I would go home and think, hey my speakers lock the image better. Then I would hear the MBL's again and they just sounded more like music than a recording.
Most comments and reviews about MBL mention how the speakers just plain disappear. Save for those few recordings where the intent is for you to hear a given sound coming from a specific speaker, I seldom hear my speakers.

-You are asking the wrong person as to whether they are suitable for Jazz, others here know I place most Jazz just above Rap so it seldom gets played on my system.

-The soundstage is wide and pretty deep in general especially if you can keep them away from the room boundaries.

-Focus is something you have to decide on yourself. Some people have issues with how they "might" smear the sound a bit, but again this is exactly what you get when listening to live music.

As I listen while responding to your questions, the speakers have disappeared, vocals and instruments come from between my speakers, yet the room is filled with music.

Jim

Jim, thank you very much for your suggestions.

What is the distance of the emission centers of the tweeter/midrange group of your MBL 111F from the back wall?

[Still-One]

massimo
The MBL owners manual actually provides guidelines with suggested ratios for positioning the speakers. I will pull that out and post it later today.

Jim

[Kingsrule]

Because they have a conventional woofer the place is dictated by how the woofer interacts with the room

[Still-One]

Here is the suggested method my MBL for the 111F's

4.2 General set-up tips
For best performance the speakers should be set up in front of a hard part of the room (e.g. solid wall or in front on non-vibrating windows)
If possible set the speakers on the longer wall.
Shelves of hi-fi racks locate between the speakers ( also the wall) should not be higher than the midrange driver of the speaker, approx 1 meter (40")
4.3 Speaker Positioning
Transfer your room dimensions (longer and sorter side of room) on a handmade drawing (I will try and scan the document to add to his post)
Set the speaker in the drawing. To find the optimal position proceed as follows
Stereo base (a) At first define the stereo base, that is the distance between the speakers (a). The stereo base should be at least 2 meters (80") up to 3.5 meters (140")
Back wall distance 9b)
The distance between the back wall and the speakers 9b) should be at least 0.8m (32")
Side Wall distance (c)
Now evaluate the distance between each speaker and the respective side wall (d)
If you set the speakers on the longer side of the room (recommended), use the following formula.
d= side wall distance
b=back wall distance

d=b x 1.32 **
If you are setting them on the shorter side of the room:
b/d = 1.32 **

** Note 1.32 variable to 1.63

4.4 Listener position
The distance between the listener position and the speakers (e) should be a least 1m (40"). The distance from the rear wall to the listeners position (c) should be at least 0.8m (32")
If the calculated data does not fit your room, change position (b)

[m.tonetti]

massimo
The MBL owners manual actually provides guidelines with suggested ratios for positioning the speakers. I will pull that out and post it later today.

Jim

Jim, many thanks for this information.

Meanwhile I have found online the Owner's Manual of MBL 116 in PDF format:
MBL 116 Owner's Manual (http://www.mbl-usa.com/Resources/Documents/116.pdf)

Perhaps the rules are valid for all omnidirectional MBL speakers!

Speaker positioning
See the figures Fig. 1 and Fig.2 using the instructions below:

Stereo base (a)
At first define the stereo base, that is the distance between the speakers (a).
The stereo base should be at least 2 meter (80 in) up to 3.5 meter (140 in).

Back wall distance (b)
The distance between the back wall and the speakers (b) should be at least 0,8 meter (32 in).

Side wall distance (d)
Now evaluate the distance between each speaker and the respective side wall (d).
If you set up the speakers on the longer side of the room (recommended), use the following formula:
d = b x 1,32
If you prefer to set up the speakers on the shorter side of the room:
d = b / 1,32
(Note: 1,32 variable up to 1,63)

Listener´s position
The distance between the listener´s position and the speakers (e) should be at least 1meter (40 in).
The distance from the rear wall to the listener´s position (c) should be at least 0,8 meter (32 in).
If the resulted data do not fit to your room, change the distance (b).

http://www.massimotonetti.com/wp-content/uploads/MBL_Fig1.jpg

http://www.massimotonetti.com/wp-content/uploads/MBL_Fig2.jpg

[Still-One]

massimo
We posted at the same time. :lmao:

Jim

[m.tonetti]

massimo
We posted at the same time. :lmao:

Jim

Ops, sorry!

At this point I understand that the suggested method are the same for all MBL speakers (at least for 116 and 111F).

Jim, have you followed these instructions to the letter?

[Still-One]

Ops, sorry!

At this point I understand that the suggested method are the same for all MBL speakers (at least for 116 and 111F).

Jim, have you followed these instructions to the letter?
Yes, except that my listening position is often closer to the rear wall than 32" but I do have a sound panel behind my head which you can see in this photo.

Jim

[m.tonetti]

Another important tip for the MBL speakers:
"Run in the speakers for at least 100 hours and do another fine-tuning, if necessary."

[m.tonetti]

On the owner's manual of the 116 I have not found any trace of the fact that the speakers must be oriented to the listening point, this for improved bass output as a dynamic speaker.

Many owners of MBL speakers argue that this positioning improves bass output and tonal coherence, as a dynamic speaker.

For example, the positioning shown below is correct?

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/lasvegas2009/jan11a/mbl_room1.jpg
and
http://live.audiogon.com/i/cal2011/f/1311372966.jpg

Jim, your speakers are parallel to the back wall?
Sorry, but from the photos I don't understand!

[m.tonetti]

Jim,

have you read this interesting review of your MBL 111F on "hifi & records" magazine?

MBL-111F, hifi & records (http://www.mbl.de/en/gate/news/news-archiv/pdf/mbl-111F.pdf)

[Still-One]

Massino
Thanks for posting the review, I had not seen that before.

I have never seen MBL's toed in to the extent show in those photos. I have tried mine angled in a bit more than you see in my photo but prefer the sound the way they are. I have heard some dealers suggest that you should make sure that at least one of the "petals" is aimed at the seating position.

Jim

[m.tonetti]

My Nagra VPA (50 watts) will be able to drive the MBL 120 speakers (82 dB sensitivity) in an environment of 16 square meters?

These are the specifications of the Nagra VPA: VPA (pdf) (http://www.nagraaudio.com/highend/doc_en/VPA_E.pdf)

MBL for 120 speakers recommends an amp of 300 Watt!

[m.tonetti]

My Nagra VPA (50 watts) will be able to drive the MBL 120 speakers (82 dB sensitivity) in an environment of 16 square meters?


Actually with the Focal Utopia III Diablo (89 db sensitivity) the Load Match Meters of my Nagra VPA never indicate more than 15 watts, even as I turn up the volume to disturb my neighbors! :thumbsup:

[bart]

Massimo, what I know from MBL speakers is that they are really power hungry.
I heard different set-ups, always with big amps (MBL, Burmester), and my dealer, and the importer, stressed upon their low sensitivity.
With the right power they do wonderful things with music! :thumbsup:

[Still-One]

Massimo,
Bart is correct, MBL's do like power. That being said , your room is not that large and you could probably get by with your Nagra under normal listening conditions. Without having heard a Nagra / MBL combination I just can't be sure of that.

Jim

[m.tonetti]

Bart/Jim, thanks for your suggestions.

I did some calculations and to compensate the loss of 7 db of sensitivity (dB SPL for 1 watt input at 1 meter) I should apply a power multiplied by a factor 5, compared to the power that currently applies!

[if dB = 10 Log(x) then x = Alog(dB/10) where Alog = antilogarithm(base 10)]

Is it correct?

Finally we must consider that we are talking about omnidirectional speakers!
All this is applicable?

[m.tonetti]

I found online this website below for audio conversion.

Sound Studio and Audio Calculations:
Sengpielaudio's Websites - Audio and Acoustics Conversion Engines (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Calculations03.htm)

Sound Pressure Level and Amplifier Power:
Sengpielaudio's Websites - Loudspeaker Sensitivity Conversion (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-efficiency.htm)

[Still-One]

Massino
Have you seen the Review of the MBL 101e Mk II's in the Dec 11 issue of The Absolute Sound. Peter Breuninger gave one of the most positive reviews of any product I have ever read. As I have posted, he notes that if you are looking for concert hall realism there is no speaker that does it better. (Except for the Xtreme).

Jim

[m.tonetti]

Massino
Have you seen the Review of the MBL 101e Mk II's in the Dec 11 issue of The Absolute Sound. Peter Breuninger gave one of the most positive reviews of any product I have ever read. As I have posted, he notes that if you are looking for concert hall realism there is no speaker that does it better. (Except for the Xtreme).

Jim

Unfortunately no!

http://www.mbl-spain.es/mediac/400_0/media/cdd954f6f1184c75ffff842effff8709.jpg

[dude]

Hi Jim,

I've searched far and wide for any forum that have MBL owners.

For background, I have the original 116, a Pass Labs X250.5 amp, the CJ Premier LS 18 pre, and the Cary Audio CD 306 SACD player.

Listening room is 18' wide with the speakers 5' from the back wall, 5.5' from the side walls, and 7' between. Listening chair is 9' from the speaker face.

Have large plants as diffusers on the back wall, which contains a large window. Also use some panels behind and to the sides of the speakers.

My main question is toe in? How much do you use?

From your experience, should I toe in the speakers so they are pointing directly at the center chair or is more toe in / toe out required to optimize performance? My dealer, Bill Parrish / GTT Audio recommended the "pointing directly" approach.

Any input / insight into your experimentation in this area would be most appreciated.

Best,

Gordon

[Still-One]

Gordon

I only have my 111f's set up with very slight toe-in. This was per the suggestion of a MBL dealer that I trust very much.

How you set yours up might depend where yours are pointed. Into furniture, at wall, at your gear, etc.

Jim

[dude]

Hi Jim,

Go figure. Just tried with very little toe out. Major jump in sonics.

Thank you for replying to my post.

Gordon