SE'ed LP125M are back

[ronenash]

Took a bit longer than expected but the LP125M came back from the upgrade :banana:

Out of the box they have more resolution than before but the sound stage is flat and the sound is condenced.

Starting to cook those teflons and count hours on the break in meter. Currently reading 1.

I will be running them non-stop for the coming two days. After 50 hours they should be a little more listenable. I will try to run them at least 12 hours a day to get the break in over with in a month or so.

Will continue to update.

[repman]

thanks for the update please keep us informed on your impressions as it burns in.
I am wanting to send back my 11-A for the cap upgrade as well.

Thanks, Larry

[Puma Cat]

Took a bit longer than expected but the LP125M came back from the upgrade :banana:

Out of the box they have more resolution than before but the sound stage is flat and the sound is condenced.

Starting to cook those teflons and count hours on the break in meter. Currently reading 1.

I will be running them non-stop for the coming two days. After 50 hours they should be a little more listenable. I will try to run them at least 12 hours a day to get the break in over with in a month or so.

Will continue to update.

Congrats on getting the LP125 SE back, Ron.

Patience is the key regarding Teflon cap burn in. Shane, myself and others have found that it will take 4-5 months of playing before they start to open up and sound musical. In my experience, 500 hours is required before they *start* to sound more listenable, rather than 50. Just want to share what I found to be more realistic expectations; many people give up too soon and get rid of their components because they still sound pretty poor even at 300-400 hrs; the Teflon cap burn-in hell can be pretty frustrating, but definitely rewards patience.

[Puma Cat]

Took a bit longer than expected but the LP125M came back from the upgrade :banana:

Out of the box they have more resolution than before but the sound stage is flat and the sound is condenced.

Starting to cook those teflons and count hours on the break in meter. Currently reading 1.

I will be running them non-stop for the coming two days. After 50 hours they should be a little more listenable. I will try to run them at least 12 hours a day to get the break in over with in a month or so.

Will continue to update.

I've taken to running my CT-5 for 12 hours a day to rack up more hours on the clock. Unfortunately, I don't have "break-in meter" data on it, so I don't know exactly how many hours it has on it and given that, how much it could continue to improve. Giving it some more time on the clock before deciding once and for all whether to keep it or the Pr17. It's improved tremendously since getting it Feb 15th, but not sure if my personal preferences for the Pr17 are based on insufficient burn-in on the caps on the CT-5 or the sonic differences between the 6H30/6N30 tubes used by the CT-5 vs. the 6922 used by the Pr17.

I suspect it's the tube, though.

[ronenash]

Hi Stephen,

I know 50 hours are not nearly enough. Its just that I do not want to leave it powered up with music over a longer period. With my Motif which is solid state I left it on running with music through my Zune player for three strait weeks to burn it in and it was still improving a couple of month after that. With tube power amp its more tricky.
I found an interesting read about teflon capacitor break in period:

I get more calls about products utilizing Teflon capacitors than any other type of capacitor. Teflon capacitors take a solid 400 hours to reach about 90% of their true potential and their true colors open up at the 600 hour mark. It has also been established that they will even continue to change, ever so slightly, up to 1200 hours. You may not notice these changes and I only mention it to give you an indication of the characteristics of Teflon.

During the break-in cycle of these capacitors, they will go through different stages. During the initial 150 hours, you will notice these capacitors will do a two steps forward, one step back routine. What you will notice is that one day you system may sound fine while the next day (after it's one step back) it will not sound as good as it did even the day before. This is the stage where the capacitors can actually sound broken. Don't be alarmed, it's simply the nature of Teflon.

What you will notice is a 2 dimensional sound. The bass may be uncontrolled, the midrange a bit foggy and a lack of air and extension. Absolutely no coherency.

After 150 hours, the capacitors start to stabilize. From this point onward, they will be more consistent in their progress. They will still only be at about 50% of their sonic potential but the one step back issue is gone. This stage will last to about the 200-250 hour mark. This is where they start to become more 'listenable' but you are till only half way there.

The bass should start getting better here and the highs a bit more extended but the midrange is not quite there yet.

Now that you have gone through the ugly stages and have reached the 300 hour mark, things are starting to come into focus. Teflon capacitors start coming into their own between 300 and 400 hours. You may still noticed a few quirks but they should be minimal at this point. You have have more control down below, the midrange is becoming more real and the upper end is starting to extend further. This is when I usually receive the phone calls telling me I was absolutely correct about what to expect.

One you reach the 400 hour mark, you are starting to reach sonic nirvana and it will not be long before you are experiencing the truest potential of Teflon capacitors. It's been a long road but you will probably find the journey well worth it. This is the point where the midrange magic is apparent. You should notice a sense of texture and realism that is uncanny. The bass is quick and firm and the highs extended with a great sense of air. You will now start realizing a wide, spacious presentation as well. At this point, I don't receive any phone calls at all as you will be too involved in your music to want to waste time talking to me.

[Puma Cat]

Got it, Ron.

BTW,thanks for posting that article on Teflon cap burn-in...it will be immensely helpful.

[Jerome W]

Ron,

That was an interesting read ! Thanks.
I believe that ARC uses also Teflon caps...

[ronenash]

Got it, Ron.

BTW,thanks for posting that article on Teflon cap burn-in...it will be immensely helpful.

If you find the whole capacitor burn in process interesting following this link for data on burn in times for different types of capacitors.

BURN NOTICE - Burn in process & expectations for Bella EXtreme products (http://www.bellaextreme.com/burn%20notice.htm)

[ronenash]

I've taken to running my CT-5 for 12 hours a day to rack up more hours on the clock. Unfortunately, I don't have "break-in meter" data on it, so I don't know exactly how many hours it has on it and given that, how much it could continue to improve. Giving it some more time on the clock before deciding once and for all whether to keep it or the Pr17. It's improved tremendously since getting it Feb 15th, but not sure if my personal preferences for the Pr17 are based on insufficient burn-in on the caps on the CT-5 or the sonic differences between the 6H30/6N30 tubes used by the CT-5 vs. the 6922 used by the Pr17.

I suspect it's the tube, though.

This is interesting. The CT5 should be much more refined than the PR17. The 6H30 shounded phenomenal on the ACT2 I had for a while. The CT5 should be very close to the ACT2.
What do you find more appealing about the PR17?

[Puma Cat]

It sounds more like music.

[ronenash]

With 60 hours on the burn in meter the LP125M SE are already sounding better. The bass is still not very accurate and soundstage width and depth are still lacking. In the highs is already way better than before the upgrade with more detail and air.
I will keep them working continously for another 12 hours after which I will run them about 12 hours a day. Will keep updating.

[bgiliberti]

Patience is the key regarding Teflon cap burn in. Shane, myself and others have found that it will take 4-5 months of playing before they start to open up and sound musical. In my experience, 500 hours is required before they *start* to sound more listenable, rather than 50. Just want to share what I found to be more realistic expectations; many people give up too soon and get rid of their components because they still sound pretty poor even at 300-400 hrs; the Teflon cap burn-in hell can be pretty frustrating, but definitely rewards patience.Thanks for the info, but this is one of the more depressing pieces of news I've heard lately, as I am now at 500 hours on my classic se. I have to say, I am getting pretty bummed at this point. If all I played was bongo music and wood blocks, I'd be ecstatic, but unfortunately for me, I'm an opera buff, and Pavarotti still sounds like he has a cold. Admittedly, I'm coming from a Pv-7, which may be the most forgiving (alas, also the least revealing) preamp CJ ever made, so it could be it's me, and not the preamp that needs to break in. But, honestly, I think I know good sound, and what I'm hearing is simply not convincing musically - especially and the midrange/vocals, which are flat and even slightly 'furry' around the edges. Plus, it's pretty good one day, and not the next, which apparently is 'normal' for teflon.

When you say you have been waiting since February, my god! Is it really sensible to make a product that needs 8 months to 'just sound right?' Since I live near CJ, I'm thinking of bringing it to them for a listen. Maybe this is the way it is and I bought the wrong preamp? Maybe not a good match with my Harbeth 30s, or my CJ MF80? Really, what I did not expect for my $2000 was another 7 months of wondering what the damn thing is supposed to sound like! :grumpy: Sorry for the rant, but this is bugging me!!! I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge and the willingness to share views on this board. I'd be feeling a ton worse than I do now without the support u guys have provided.

[Rayooo]

Thanks for the info, but this is one of the more depressing pieces of news I've heard lately, as I am now at 500 hours on my classic se. I have to say, I am getting pretty bummed at this point. If all I played was bongo music and wood blocks, I'd be ecstatic, but unfortunately for me, I'm an opera buff, and Pavarotti still sounds like he has a cold. Admittedly, I'm coming from a Pv-7, which may be the most forgiving (alas, also the least revealing) preamp CJ ever made, so it could be it's me, and not the preamp that needs to break in. But, honestly, I think I know good sound, and what I'm hearing is simply not convincing musically - especially and the midrange/vocals, which are flat and even slightly 'furry' around the edges. Plus, it's pretty good one day, and not the next, which apparently is 'normal' for teflon.

When you say you have been waiting since February, my god! Is it really sensible to make a product that needs 8 months to 'just sound right?' Since I live near CJ, I'm thinking of bringing it to them for a listen. Maybe this is the way it is and I bought the wrong preamp? Maybe not a good match with my Harbeth 30s, or my CJ MF80? Really, what I did not expect for my $2000 was another 7 months of wondering what the damn thing is supposed to sound like! :grumpy: Sorry for the rant, but this is bugging me!!! I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge and the willingness to share views on this board. I'd be feeling a ton worse than I do now without the support u guys have provided.

In general I personally think this "burn in" thing is a bit overplayed these days. I also must admit that when I sent my original CJ Classic in for the SE update, upon return I had a hard time understanding what all the fuss was about a few Teflon Caps and Vishay Resistors. In time, and it did take many hours, I did begin seeing the change. I'd say it took maybe 250 hours tops though for things to settle.

I think my ET-5 must have around 500 hours by now, and I'd say it's been broken in since probably 300ish hours.

And then I read somewhere that JC-1 Power amps take 1000 hours to sound right!!.. which I have a hard time accepting, I guess I'll know for sure in another 750 listening hours :sigh:

Good Luck sorting this out!

[Rafale]

Thanks for the info, but this is one of the more depressing pieces of news I've heard lately, as I am now at 500 hours on my classic se. I have to say, I am getting pretty bummed at this point. If all I played was bongo music and wood blocks, I'd be ecstatic, but unfortunately for me, I'm an opera buff, and Pavarotti still sounds like he has a cold. Admittedly, I'm coming from a Pv-7, which may be the most forgiving (alas, also the least revealing) preamp CJ ever made, so it could be it's me, and not the preamp that needs to break in. But, honestly, I think I know good sound, and what I'm hearing is simply not convincing musically - especially and the midrange/vocals, which are flat and even slightly 'furry' around the edges. Plus, it's pretty good one day, and not the next, which apparently is 'normal' for teflon.

When you say you have been waiting since February, my god! Is it really sensible to make a product that needs 8 months to 'just sound right?' Since I live near CJ, I'm thinking of bringing it to them for a listen. Maybe this is the way it is and I bought the wrong preamp? Maybe not a good match with my Harbeth 30s, or my CJ MF80? Really, what I did not expect for my $2000 was another 7 months of wondering what the damn thing is supposed to sound like! :grumpy: Sorry for the rant, but this is bugging me!!! I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge and the willingness to share views on this board. I'd be feeling a ton worse than I do now without the support u guys have provided.

The craftiness it is to make it buy by somebody else and then to to buy back to him 50 % of the new price with the break-in just to be finished...:roflmao::roflmao::laughin::laughin: .

[bgiliberti]

The craftiness it is to make it buy by somebody else and then to to buy back to him 50 % of the new price with the break-in just to be finished...:roflmao::roflmao::laughin::laughin: .Why didn't I think of that first, let someone else do the work for me....:music:

[ronenash]

Thanks for the info, but this is one of the more depressing pieces of news I've heard lately, as I am now at 500 hours on my classic se. I have to say, I am getting pretty bummed at this point. If all I played was bongo music and wood blocks, I'd be ecstatic, but unfortunately for me, I'm an opera buff, and Pavarotti still sounds like he has a cold. Admittedly, I'm coming from a Pv-7, which may be the most forgiving (alas, also the least revealing) preamp CJ ever made, so it could be it's me, and not the preamp that needs to break in. But, honestly, I think I know good sound, and what I'm hearing is simply not convincing musically - especially and the midrange/vocals, which are flat and even slightly 'furry' around the edges. Plus, it's pretty good one day, and not the next, which apparently is 'normal' for teflon.

When you say you have been waiting since February, my god! Is it really sensible to make a product that needs 8 months to 'just sound right?' Since I live near CJ, I'm thinking of bringing it to them for a listen. Maybe this is the way it is and I bought the wrong preamp? Maybe not a good match with my Harbeth 30s, or my CJ MF80? Really, what I did not expect for my $2000 was another 7 months of wondering what the damn thing is supposed to sound like! :grumpy: Sorry for the rant, but this is bugging me!!! I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge and the willingness to share views on this board. I'd be feeling a ton worse than I do now without the support u guys have provided.

The PV7 is a very different animal from the Classic SE. The PV7 is old scholl CJ (rounded off at the frequency extremes, glorious mid and not very detailed). The Classic SE is a modern CJ design, very detailed with good extension at the frequency extremes and more air in the highs. If your power amp if the MF80 it will still throw you back to old school CJ sound which many including myself like very much. With that said I still enjoy the benefits of the modern designs very much.
Regarding burn in, 500 hours should be enough to make the preamp sing. However burning in a preamp is simple. All you need to do is connect it to a power amp (the power amp does not have to be turned on) and run music through it. It can be radio, computer based or CD on repeat (which will put un-necessary milage on your CD). You can leave the music playing whenever you are not listenning and turn the power off. Three weeks of this and your preamp is burned in.
Burning in a tube power amp is more difficult as you can not leave it on playing music for three weeks :tears:

Hope this helps,

[ronenash]

I Listened again to the 125 again this morning and the teflon capacitor burn in process description is so true. Yesterday the amps sounded fairly good and I really enjoyed listening to music. This morning was a whole different story. Everything sounded muffled and veilled. It was almost like listening to a portable radio. I could not believe it. It was so bizar that I got up to check the cabling. This is the worst the amps sounded thus far.:sigh:

I decided to leave the amps on all day. Maybe this evening things will get better.

[Rafale]

Thanks for sharing Ron, it is to note that this is not the exclusivity of CJ, the owners of Naim gear also notice the same phenomenon: phases of regression in the process of maturation of big capacitors.....It is much easier to leave on permanently on SS, but we cannot have everything.....

[bgiliberti]

I Listened again to the 125 again this morning and the teflon capacitor burn in process description is so true. Yesterday the amps sounded fairly good and I really enjoyed listening to music. This morning was a whole different story. Everything sounded muffled and veilled. It was almost like listening to a portable radio. I could not believe it. It was so bizar that I got up to check the cabling. This is the worst the amps sounded thus far.:sigh:
I decided to leave the amps on all day. Maybe this evening things will get better.Thanks again for the hand holding everyone. I appreciate it! The back and forth thing is so true, and so frustrating emotionally. I can tell from the first bass note whether it will be a good day or bad day -- when I hear the liquid extended bass note first up, everything else sounds right too. If it's dry bass, everything else is going to be compressed and compacted. One thing that seems to help is to put up the volume control on the preamp pretty high when the power amp is off, as if to force more signal through the bypass capacitor, which I assume cj has if it's like my old guitar amp. Maybe it's my imagination (and I know nothing about electronics/schematics) but it seems to make it sound better. BTW, I agree with your comments on the PV7 -- I would never go back to it, at least with my current rig. I was missing too much. Would I have been happier with the non-SE classic? maybe... but I was told the midrange is the same, and that's where my issue is now. So who knows? I think the teflon burn in affects everything, and that the midrange is the last to snap into place. That is my hope at least, because the Classic SE sounds sooooooo much better than the PV7 on in every other area. When I get true vitality and coherence on the midrange -- I'm not looking for the old CJ warmth -- I will be very happy! This morning, BTW, it sounded as sweet as it ever has --- a good sign.

[ronenash]

One thing that seems to help is to put up the volume control on the preamp pretty high when the power amp is off, as if to force more signal through the bypass capacitor, which I assume cj has if it's like my old guitar amp. Maybe it's my imagination (and I know nothing about electronics/schematics) but it seems to make it sound better. BTW, I agree with your comments on the PV7

You are definitly right. I know a few things about electronics :yes:
When you:yes: turn up the volume on the preamp you are driving more current through the bypass capacitors and the power suply. This is as long as the preamp is connected to the power amp (even if the power amp is turned off). Driving more current through the capacitors will accelerate the burn in process. Do not turn the volume up too high to avoid clipping. You can safely turn it a but past you highest listening level.

[turntable]

You are definitly right. I know a few things about electronics :yes:
When you:yes: turn up the volume on the preamp you are driving more current through the bypass capacitors and the power suply. This is as long as the preamp is connected to the power amp (even if the power amp is turned off). Driving more current through the capacitors will accelerate the burn in process. Do not turn the volume up too high to avoid clipping. You can safely turn it a but past you highest listening level.

Hi Ron

Are you saying if you turned your cj pre amp up to say 90, with CD playing on repeat and speakers turned off.
It will burn in quicker than doing the same thing with volume on 17 ?

[ronenash]

Hi Ron

Are you saying if you turned your cj pre amp up to say 90, with CD playing on repeat and speakers turned off.
It will burn in quicker than doing the same thing with volume on 17 ?

Yes, but don't go that hi. A normal listening volume is between 40 and 50 in most cases, I would not go higher than 65-70.

Trying not to get too technical, all capacitor will have a constant voltage across them when music is not playing. At this state they are not burning in. They need an audio signal to burn in. When the amplifier has a signal flowing through it the voltage across the capacitor modulates in relation to the input signal. The higher the volume the higher this modulation will be and the faster the capacitors burn in. You do not want to over do it since the circuits will clip which is not a good thing.

One more thing to note is that in order for the signal to flow through the amp and its part you need to have a closed circuit. Basically what this means is that is the preamp is not connected to the power amp you can play music for days but burn in will not accure as you have an open circuit and no current flows through the amp. When you connect the preamp to the power amp you put a load on the preamp and close the circuit so that current flows through the amplifier. This happens even if the power amp is turned off. All power amps have a loading resistor in their input. Usually between 50k-100K Ohm. What you are basically doing when connecting the preamp outputs to the power amp inputs is puting a resistor across the preamp outputs.

I hope this was not too confusing.

[turntable]

Hi Ron, not confusing.
I switch the amps off during the night if burning in my pre

all cj pre amps for example attenuate the signal up to unity gain. I think on the cj, that is in the 70's on the vol control.
How could having the volume even at 75 or 80 clip the circuits?

Cj design them to go that high in volume depending on the gain structure and efficency of the speakers.

[bgiliberti]

I must have very efficient speakers (Harbeth 30) or else the CJ mf80 amp is very sensitive. My normal listening is at about 9' o'clock (ie, line is horizontal left, about 1/4 total rotation), and max listening is about 9:45 o'clock. My room sound meter shows 85db peaks at my listening position at my max normal listening volume. When I turn it off at night I put it up to maybe 10:45, so if I forget to turn it down before switching on the amp, it will not blow off my eardrums. If I put it straight up to high noon, it would be way louder than I could stand. I guess when you say 65 you mean like 2 o'clock?

[ronenash]

Hi Ron, not confusing.
I switch the amps off during the night if burning in my pre

all cj pre amps for example attenuate the signal up to unity gain. I think on the cj, that is in the 70's on the vol control.
How could having the volume even at 75 or 80 clip the circuits?

Cj design them to go that high in volume depending on the gain structure and efficency of the speakers.

This is not accurate. CJ preamps typically have between 18 and 25db gain which is high compared to other manufacturers. If you turn the volume too high it will clip. That is unless your source component output is very low.

[ronenash]

I must have very efficient speakers (Harbeth 30) or else the CJ mf80 amp is very sensitive. My normal listening is at about 9' o'clock (ie, line is horizontal left, about 1/4 total rotation), and max listening is about 9:45 o'clock. My room sound meter shows 85db peaks at my listening position at my max normal listening volume. When I turn it off at night I put it up to maybe 10:45, so if I forget to turn it down before switching on the amp, it will not blow off my eardrums. If I put it straight up to high noon, it would be way louder than I could stand. I guess when you say 65 you mean like 2 o'clock?

i was referring to the digital volume control on remote cj preamps. It probably translates to the 12 o'clock position on non remote preamps.

[bgiliberti]

Thanks everyone. I wonder if my CJ "guru' Jeff (aka 'Tonepub') has additional thoughts on this. I seem to recall him saying that the preamp doesn't have to connected to anything to burn in the caps. I'm not trying to stir the pot at all, and quite possibly I have misunderstood what he said (I can't find his post, it may have been on another forum and it may also be out of date advice, since rescinded), but I wonder he has any additional views on this. (I would PM him, but as I am not yet a subcriber -- I plan to subscribe shortly -- I am not yet able to PM.)

[turntable]

This is not accurate. CJ preamps typically have between 18 and 25db gain which is high compared to other manufacturers. If you turn the volume too high it will clip. That is unless your source component output is very low.

I checked the Stereophile ART review - All of the higher end 6922 based cj pre amps have 25db gain. Unity gain is 66 on the digital 0 - 99 volume display

When I used to have my prem 16, combined with low gain prem 15 phono and LOMC's, it was not unusual to play music loud with the vol at 80 - 83 on the display. There was no distortion. Those volume levels were not possible with CD, as it would be too loud and would be distorting the speakers.

I was purely talking about running in your pre amp without the amplifier turned on.

anyway, burning in my GAT on 55 vol setting

cheers

[bgiliberti]

I...burning in my GAT on 55 vol setting...It has occurred to me, based on this discussion, that the reason it's going so slow for me (I am at 550 hrs and counting) is that I spent the first 250 hours running it with the amp on, but at low volume. I thought at the time that it would be better to have the preamp face a dynamic load from the power amp in term of burning in, but maybe that is not so good. At this point, I will do the equivalent of 55 on my analog pot with the power amp off, to get more juice through the bypass caps. What a long, strange trip it's been....

[ronenash]

What a long, strange trip it's been....

I am sure its going to be worth it. My previous experience with teflon capped preamps has been nothing but phenominal.:yes:

[ronenash]

With over 210 hours on the burn in meter the LP125m SE is starting to show its potential. It is now better than before the upgrade in every way. Detail, transparency, bass definition is all getting to be very good. At this point I there is no regression in its performance and the progress is slower and more consistent.
It blows me away to think that in a couple of month things will get even better. I will not continue to do accelerated burn in after the 250 hour mark and will just enjoy the music.

[chessman]

Awesome. Congrats again!!

[Puma Cat]

With over 210 hours on the burn in meter the LP125m SE is starting to show its potential. It is now better than before the upgrade in every way. Detail, transparency, bass definition is all getting to be very good. At this point I there is no regression in its performance and the progress is slower and more consistent.
It blows me away to think that in a couple of month things will get even better. I will not continue to do accelerated burn in after the 250 hour mark and will just enjoy the music.

Ron, what are you using as a burn-in meter?

Cheers,
Stephen

[ronenash]

Ron, what are you using as a burn-in meter?

Cheers,
Stephen

Watch, peice of paper and a sharpened pencil. :D

[bgiliberti]

I am sure its going to be worth it. My previous experience with teflon capped preamps has been nothing but phenominal.:yes:After sounding absolutely phenomenal at the magic 600 hour mark 1 day ago, my Classic SE preamp has reverted to sounding like an Ipod tonight. Simply unf'ing believable. This reversion was not supposed to happen after 200 hours I had read, but for me, it's a fact of life. I'm beginning to think that this is a more complex phenomena than mere burn in. Let me throw out the suggestion that Teflon caps are highly subject to some other effect -- heat, power line condition, volume control position (needs high setting, which is bad if you have a small room, a sensitive power amp, or efficient speakers) that makes them inherently inconsistent, maybe forever. Let me also throw out the suggestion that this totally sucks, and that the people who sell their Teflon amps on Audiogon allegedly "too early" are actually "a lot smarter" than has been generally acknowledged here and on other boards. I am going to stick it out for 1000 hours -- hell, why not at this point -- but if this continues, it is either going on audiogon, going back to Spearit Sound, or going through the rear window of Lew Johnson's Buick -- just kidding about the latter of course. But seriously, this has been a total bitch. You guys have been great, but maybe I'm just not the Teflon man I thought I was...sigh.

[chessman]

bgiliberti, I do not know the truth of it, but at 600 hours such a reversion would make me effing nuts! Good luck with it.

[bgiliberti]

bgiliberti, I do not know the truth of it, but at 600 hours such a reversion would make me effing nuts! Good luck with it.Thanks, and one of the things that makes it nutty is I keep saying, "wait is it me, or is this really happening." But yes, there are too many other people talking about how long it took for them, and how the time of day matters, etc. for mr to think I have totally lost it. Also, Lew Johnson himself has said that shipping a unit makes it worse, and that if it has been sitting for a long time, it needs more burn in. These Teflon caps is weird little critters IMO.

[ronenash]

Also, Lew Johnson himself has said that shipping a unit makes it worse, and that if it has been sitting for a long time, it needs more burn in. These Teflon caps is weird little critters IMO.

Lew is correct. I do not know about the shipping part but any component ?(teflon caps or not) will require break in after sitting for a long time (We are talking month and not weeks in this case) with no use.

[cmalak]

bgiliberti...when you say it has become like your iPod again, what exactly is happening? Soundstage shrinking, resolution diminishing, etc...? Just trying to understand what got worse again? Could it be something else other than the Teflon caps like maybe you had a signal tube go bad on you that may explain this phenomenon? Do you have a tube tester to test the tubes in your pre?

[bgiliberti]

bgiliberti...when you say it has become like your iPod again, what exactly is happening? Soundstage shrinking, resolution diminishing, etc...? Just trying to understand what got worse again? Could it be something else other than the Teflon caps like maybe you had a signal tube go bad on you that may explain this phenomenon? Do you have a tube tester to test the tubes in your pre?What I mean is that it gets unmusical. Soundstage shrinks, but more that the voices are no longer convincing/existing in real space, but seem to retreat into the wallpaper, and they sound electronic. I may just try a new set of tubes, but really, I think it's the caps. Two days ago it sounded exactly what any of us would want -- staggeringly good. If it were a tube, I would not expect that on/off quality. One weird thing is that when it sounds right, the preamp is noticeably warmer to the touch near the face plate, and also, my adcom power conditioner seems warmer. This could mean nothing, it could suggest an issue with the AC power I'm getting from Pepco, or just a mere coincidence. It could also be that I have gone nuts since I bought this 4 weeks ago, but my wife assures me that I have been nuts for at least 20 years, so there's a control group on that count.

[Puma Cat]

If it were a tube, I would not expect that on/off quality.

So, I am beginning to wonder the same thing about my KT120s....night before last, when I shut off the amp after a first evening of listening to them with real music for the first time, they sounded great. Last night they didn't sound good after all....as if they were distorting on louder passages, notably piano, etc and with dark quality....wondering if this is tube burn-in thing, as they sound good, then bad, then good, etc. until they start to actually sound good, or if I am indeed crazy. Nice thing is it's easy to swap out to the original 6550s to check.

[bgiliberti]

So, I am beginning to wonder the same thing about my KT120s....night before last, when I shut off the amp after a first evening of listening to them with real music for the first time, they sounded great. Last night they didn't sound good after all....as if they were distorting on louder passages, notably piano, etc and with dark quality....wondering if this is tube burn-in thing, as they sound good, then bad, then good, etc. until they start to actually sound good, or if I am indeed crazy. Nice thing is it's easy to swap out to the original 6550s to check.Given that the LP125S has Teflon caps, wouldn't you need to swap out the KT120s to isolate the issue? I think that maybe you are having the same issues with the Teflon Caps that I am. It may be the Teflon plus some "other" as yet unknown factor, like AC power condition, that makes it more acute in one system or another. I hate to be posting so negatively here, because I am sure that for some people, the Teflons are not problematic, and in fact are wonderful. At times, they are for me too.

[Puma Cat]

Given that the LP125S has Teflon caps, wouldn't you need to swap out the KT120s to isolate the issue? I think that maybe you are having the same issues with the Teflon Caps that I am. It may be the Teflon plus some "other" as yet unknown factor, like AC power condition, that makes it more acute in one system or another. I hate to be posting so negatively here, because I am sure that for some people, the Teflons are not problematic, and in fact are wonderful. At times, they are for me too.

No, the what I am noticing is specifically related to a tube swap night before last. I am using a LP70S....the caps are well-burned in and the sound has been exemplary and stable for almost two years now.

[jimtranr]

One weird thing is that when it sounds right, the preamp is noticeably warmer to the touch near the face plate, and also, my adcom power conditioner seems warmer. This could mean nothing, it could suggest an issue with the AC power I'm getting from Pepco, or just a mere coincidence.

On the face of it, sounds like an AC issue. Does the warm faceplate/warm ACE-515 phenomenon occur only when you're playing punchy, dynamic program material or is it present with tamer stuff as well?

[bgiliberti]

On the face of it, sounds like an AC issue. Does the warm faceplate/warm ACE-515 phenomenon occur only when you're playing punchy, dynamic program material or is it present with tamer stuff as well?I would say punchy/dynamic. What does that indicate? Probably just that it's drawing more juice? I don't play too loud normally, but I have been burning in with power amp off and the volume a bit past my normal highest listening level, mindful of the advice to avoid clipping the preamp (which I had never thought was possible, but why take a chance?). That procedure does seem to warm the preamp and Adcom faceplates up more, and I do think it has helped with burn in.

[ronenash]

I don't know if it is an AC issue or some other issue but it sure ain't the teflons. The Classic SE uses teflons to bypass ploypropelene caps as opposed to the higher end models which use pure teflons throughout the signal pass. They should not had that huge of an impact on the sound quality. In this configuration the teflons bring more air in the highs and tigher bass but the mids are usually not effected that much.

My LP125M SE has 300 hours on it and it sounds absolutly amazing with no regression in sound since about 200 hours. I will write a more complete impression/review in another post.

[Rayooo]

So, I am beginning to wonder the same thing about my KT120s....night before last, when I shut off the amp after a first evening of listening to them with real music for the first time, they sounded great. Last night they didn't sound good after all....as if they were distorting on louder passages, notably piano, etc and with dark quality....wondering if this is tube burn-in thing, as they sound good, then bad, then good, etc. until they start to actually sound good, or if I am indeed crazy. Nice thing is it's easy to swap out to the original 6550s to check.

I've been reading these recent comments, with great interest.
As an example I would swear that the ET-5 sounds better when played every day...as opposed to when several days go by without it being on. Almost as if it in fact "falls back" a bit. I would also swear that my Classic SE did NOT do this.

In truth I've wondered this for years, with different gear etc. Why a given system would sound spectacular one day, and far less so another.

AC Power? Relative Humidity? Phase of the moon? Position of Earth in relation to other planets? Pretty scary starting down that path.

Getting back to reality, (as not much I can do about Earth's position in space anyway) I've accepted (kicking and screaming) that Teflon Caps need to break-in. Do they fall back after a few days of non-use?

What about "human factors" ? One of these is when I switch from enjoying the music/system , to evaluating the music/system. I'm always fascinated how I can switch my system from sounding warm, liquid and engaging to dry, flat and lifeless when I start trying to determine for example if power cord A sounds better than power cord B.

I don't mean to vector this discussion off track..but this has been a fascinating interest of mine for years now and I had to put my 2cents in! :sigh: Who remembers the Tice Clock?

[bgiliberti]

I don't know if it is an AC issue or some other issue but it sure ain't the teflons. The Classic SE uses teflons to bypass ploypropelene caps as opposed to the higher end models which use pure teflons throughout the signal pass. They should not had that huge of an impact on the sound quality. In this configuration the teflons bring more air in the highs and tigher bass but the mids are usually not effected that much.

My LP125M SE has 300 hours on it and it sounds absolutly amazing with no regression in sound since about 200 hours. I will write a more complete impression/review in another post.Thanks for the info. I'm thinking more and more that is is not the Teflon, because the highs and transients are amazing. Most likely, it is that my PV-7 was "filtering" out the midrange edginess I am hearing now on the more detailed Classic SE. Harbeth 30s are unusually articulate in the midrange and will pick that up. Given that I am using a good, but not great Denon universal player, I'm thinking of trading it in on a Rega Apollo or a Marantz SA8004, which have warm midranges and offer more musicality. I also do think the power I get from Pepco is pretty nasty, and that my Adcom power conditioner is not really able to do the job. At some point, I will upgrade that too.