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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2012, 05:14 PM
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VT Skier I share your views on SF, Magico and Dynaudio speakers. Your experiences seem to mirror mine.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2012, 06:58 PM
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And the Sashas are the only Wilsons I've ever heard that I really liked, for whatever that's worth.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2012, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VT Skier View Post

I just think many of us would be well served, and all of these discussions advanced, if we recognize our inherent bias. Which is one of the reasons I don't comment all that often. I feel I can only give advice on what I've heard, ideally more than once, and listened to very carefully. And my advice is always worth what it costs.
Jon this is very perceptive and worth a thread unto its own. AA might be the one forum where you could pull off the discussion without it devolving.

The interesting discussion for me is how we acquire those biases and whether they tend to be rooted in what we like and hence changing over time and discovery of new components or whether they are grounded in some constant(s) that don't really change but keep the path consistent in it's direction even as components change.

Synergy supports the former. It does not support the latter.

Could be a very cool thread my friend.

Now back to the Magico's to whom this thread belongs.

Last edited by metaphacts; 06-30-2012 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:02 AM
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I agree, but that's like saying our (or any) country would be well served if politicians who disagree could still talk to each other respectively to reach compromise solutions. But rather than serving the country, or even their constituents, what they most care about is getting reelected (what they like) so they do what they feel will bring about that result.

Honestly, I even felt funny about writing up my experience at Ears Nova. I think I'm a pretty discerning, even demanding, listener, but I really only know what I like. I loved the Q3s with the Constellaton and dCS. But was it the speakers? The electronics? The room? The songs Joshua chose because he knew they would best show off the speakers?

I loved your Strads in Montreal, but that was also the first time I'd heard them playing vinyl. So was that it? Your expertise? The speakers? The other gear? Or was it the fact that they sounded so much better than the Futuras and I was being a relativist? And what if I had said I had heard the Futuras twice at shows and they weren't very good (which was true) so the speaker must not be very good (which would have been false). If I hadn't tried again with Dany, I never would have known.

I'm amazed when people write about going to a show and deciding a certain amp was bad (or good) or a set of speakers or a CD player, as they quickly walk from one room to the next with every single variable changing as soon as they exit. It's a crazy hobby filled with crazy people. But I'm sure you know that better than I.
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:10 AM
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"I loved your Strads in Montreal, but that was also the first time I'd heard them playing vinyl. So was that it? Your expertise? The speakers? The other gear? Or was it the fact that they sounded so much better than the Futuras and I was being a relativist? And what if I had said I had heard the Futuras twice at shows and they weren't very good (which was true) so the speaker must not be very good (which would have been false). If I hadn't tried again with Dany, I never would have known."

I had exactly the same response. In terms of bias, I "wanted" to like the futuras at the Montreal show last year but despite going several times to the room, was not feeling the love. The Strads on the other hand were fabulous and I'm also uncertain what it was about that setup - likely combination of the system, the setup, and the Fidelio vinyl that impressed me.

"I'm amazed when people write about going to a show and deciding a certain amp was bad (or good) or a set of speakers or a CD player, as they quickly walk from one room to the next with every single variable changing as soon as they exit."

Agree completely. It is such a crapshoot due to so many factors which is why I try not to dismiss anything not sounding good at a show but do come away with what does sound good (to me) in the top of my mind. This is why I feel confident that the Futuras sound incredible with the right system and setup.

At this point in my listening, I'm finding that the room and positioning of speakers and furniture are making the biggest difference.
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Old 07-01-2012, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VT Skier View Post
You're both welcome.

Cyril, I don't know if I would say the Magicos are "better" than the Rockports, unless your criteria are the same as mine. For instance, if you want a euphonic sound in a beautiful package that will make almost all recordings sound lovely, I don't think you can do better than the Amati Futura. So if that's your goal, you could say the Futura is "better", subjectively, than the Q3.

Objectivity is tougher to come by in this hobby. For an example, see the ridiculous posts in the Wilson forum under "Controversial Opinion" where every single poster defending Wilson speakers already owns a pair. I'm sorry, but once you've bought a product you've probably lost your ability to be completely objective when comparing it to others or responding to criticism about it unless you're very unusual. My goodness, Michael Fremer admitted that the Q5s had the best bass he'd ever heard in his room, and then he said that he preferred the bass on his Maxx 3. And that's fine if you want your bass emphasized, but why not clearly state that as your preference?

I would be the first to say Dynaudio makes a very good speaker for the money, but my Sapphires don't compare to Rockport or Magico. Or to many others, including Bill's Elipsa, much less the Futura or the Strad. And if I go on and on about how great Dynadio is, or how how much bottom end they have, ignoring the measurements that show a mid-bass emphasis to compensate for a low-end roll off, all I do is show my personal bias, which we all have but few will admit to.

I can only assume that Alon Wolf's consistent use of Spectral, Soulution, Boulder and similar gear at shows reflects his personal bias toward a certain sound. Thankfully, I don't think that bias is reflected in his speaker design, because as I wrote earlier I haven't heard another speaker that is more tonally accurate or neutral than the Q3. And that reflects my preference for a certain type of sound, if neutrality or lack of color can be called a type. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy a colored system. One of the best I've heard was the Strad system Bill had a hand in during last year's SSI in Montreal. Which is why I can respect the choices others make with their systems even if I would have chosen differently. But I wouldn't say my choices are "better" than theirs, or that my gear is better.
Great comments, Jon. I personally haven't been blown away by Magicos at shows using Soulution, Spectral or Boulder. On another note, I think my local dealer's penchant for using Wilson with Spectral also have influenced my view of that brand.

I personally would be much more interested in hearing the Magicos with Burmester, Pass Labs, C-J, EAR, or even DarTZeel.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by cmalak View Post
Jon...thank you so much for the feedback and for the comparisons to Rockport and SF. I have only heard the Magicos at Goodwins with either Boulder or Spectral electronics and the sound, while extremely resolving which is a good thing, always sounded a bit thin and tonally bleached.
Hmmm....my experience too, Cyril. Same for Wilsons with Spectral.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2012, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VT Skier View Post
You're both welcome.

Cyril, I don't know if I would say the Magicos are "better" than the Rockports, unless your criteria are the same as mine. For instance, if you want a euphonic sound in a beautiful package that will make almost all recordings sound lovely, I don't think you can do better than the Amati Futura. So if that's your goal, you could say the Futura is "better", subjectively, than the Q3.

Objectivity is tougher to come by in this hobby. For an example, see the ridiculous posts in the Wilson forum under "Controversial Opinion" where every single poster defending Wilson speakers already owns a pair. I'm sorry, but once you've bought a product you've probably lost your ability to be completely objective when comparing it to others or responding to criticism about it unless you're very unusual. My goodness, Michael Fremer admitted that the Q5s had the best bass he'd ever heard in his room, and then he said that he preferred the bass on his Maxx 3. And that's fine if you want your bass emphasized, but why not clearly state that as your preference?

I would be the first to say Dynaudio makes a very good speaker for the money, but my Sapphires don't compare to Rockport or Magico. Or to many others, including Bill's Elipsa, much less the Futura or the Strad. And if I go on and on about how great Dynadio is, or how how much bottom end they have, ignoring the measurements that show a mid-bass emphasis to compensate for a low-end roll off, all I do is show my personal bias, which we all have but few will admit to.

I can only assume that Alon Wolf's consistent use of Spectral, Soulution, Boulder and similar gear at shows reflects his personal bias toward a certain sound. Thankfully, I don't think that bias is reflected in his speaker design, because as I wrote earlier I haven't heard another speaker that is more tonally accurate or neutral than the Q3. And that reflects my preference for a certain type of sound, if neutrality or lack of color can be called a type. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy a colored system. One of the best I've heard was the Strad system Bill had a hand in during last year's SSI in Montreal. Which is why I can respect the choices others make with their systems even if I would have chosen differently. But I wouldn't say my choices are "better" than theirs, or that my gear is better.
VTskier, I equate neutral and transparent sound to that of Martin Logans. Electrostats with not boxy sound, sound appears literally out of thin air. I have yet to listen to Magicos, but I have listened to Martin logans. Are the sounds of ML and Magico similar?................Since we are talking about neutral, and boxless sound.

Last edited by frequentflyer; 07-01-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2012, 05:57 PM
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Hi FF, If you are whom I think you are-I'd avoid Magicos--I've heard them enough times to know they

just don't involve--

As for comparison to the Rockports-- the Rockies by country mile!

Hope you're well

Des W
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2012, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frequentflyer View Post
VTskier, I equate neutral and transparent sound to that of Martin Logans. Electrostats with not boxy sound, sound appears literally out of thin air. I have yet to listen to Magicos, but I have listened to Martin logans. Are the sounds of ML and Magico similar?................Since we are talking about neutral, and boxless sound.
I haven't heard ML enough to be able to compare, but I think Magico is worth a listen, with the right electronics. Rockport also makes very good speakers, and you can read my previous posts in this thread for my thoughts on the Avior vs. the Q3.
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